-

The Observer is a Student-run, daily print & online newspaper serving Notre Dame & Saint Mary's. Learn more about us.

-

viewpoint

Embrace the Men’s Rights Movement

| Friday, October 10, 2014

This is a response to Annie Kuster’s viewpoint Oct. 9 viewpoint, “A personal invitation to embrace feminism.”

I remember first hearing about Emma Watson’s UN address, initially thinking to myself this was probably just another popularity boost for the feminist movement. I was impressed to learn Watson claimed to be inviting men to participate in the gender equality movement. She discussed how her male friends at 18 were unable to express themselves emotionally and how she had witnessed her father’s role as a parent being valued less. She mentioned the suicide epidemic in the U.K., the greatest killer among men ages 20 to 49. As I read through the transcript, it finally seemed like feminism would take some interest in men’s problems. Motivated by Watson’s speech, I immediately proceeded to the HeForShe campaign’s official website (HeForShe.org), the reason Watson had given her address. There I found the HeForShe Commitment, which reinforced my initial speculation and the overarching reason for the men’s rights movement: Feminism is not interested in men’s problems.

The HeForShe Commitment states, “Gender equality is not only a women’s issue, it is a human rights issue that requires my participation. I commit to take action against all forms of violence and discrimination faced by women and girls.” Although Watson has spoken about how men have gender issues and their issues should be recognized, the HeForShe campaign fails to include this in its pledge. Feminism is not interested in the problems men face in today’s society, and thus I refuse to support a movement that claims to promote gender equality but in actuality is concerned with the elevation of women at the expense of men. The idea that men enjoy a privileged life in today’s American society is far from accurate. We have real problems, and it is time they be recognized.

As college men, every night we go out we must be exceptionally careful of our actions. We can do our best to try and attain consent, but from a legal standpoint, any level of intoxication is enough to void any consent we thought we had received. Laws and policies such as the April 4, 2011, “Dear Colleague” letter issued by the Office for Civil Rights, the Federal Rule of Evidence 413 and the Rape Shield Law leave college men nearly defenseless against an accusation. When convicted, a man is more often than not expelled from university and will face legal charges. He often is labeled as a sex offender — a lifelong and public punishment — and may face time in federal prison. This is the case in a world where studies, such as one by Eugene Kanin, have demonstrated that 50 percent of rape allegations could be false and have estimated that 56 percent of those false accusations are filed as some sort of alibi.

The rape epidemic is certainly not the only problem men face. Let’s not fail to mention the immense troubles our young males and boys face growing up. Collegestats.org has collected statistics on the problems facing young boys. Boys are twice as likely to be diagnosed with ADHD as girls. Boys represent 70 percent of D and F students. On average, 11th-grade boys write at the same level as eighth-grade girls. Boys commit suicide at four times the rate girls do. Boys are five times more likely to end up in juvenile detention and by 2020, young men are projected to represent 41.4 percent of college enrollment, down from 57.7 percent in 1970. Despite these statistics, females enjoy women-only scholarships, gender-specific grant programs through Title IX and benefits from the Women’s Educational Equity Act.

Men’s issues don’t stop there. For the same crime under similar circumstances — robbing with knife or at gunpoint, for example — females face an 18.51 months sentence compared to 51.52 months for men on average. Women receive custody of their children in 84 percent of custody cases. Additionally, the SAVE organization estimates that 50 percent of restraining orders are given without any allegation of physical abuse and that 70 percent of all restraining orders are false. Men are nearly 80 percent of suicide victims and make up 62 percent of the homeless in the U.S.

Feminism claims to be a movement rooted in the idea of equal rights for men and women. Women say they don’t understand why more men aren’t feminists or why feminism is often viewed as an anti-man campaign. Well ladies, this is why.

 

Matthew D’Emic

sophomore

Knott

Oct. 10

The views expressed in this Letter to the Editor are those of the author and not necessarily those of The Observer.

Tags: , , ,

About Letter to the Editor

Letters to the Editor can be submitted by all members of the Notre Dame community. To submit a letter to the Viewpoint Editor, email viewpoint@ndsmcobserver.com

Contact Letter
  • R. Blanchette

    I wholeheartedly support this article. 🙂

    • Seriously?

      Well that’s sad

      • thewatercarrier

        You’ve lost me. What’s sad about wanting equality? Or is it just that equality doesn’t quite suit you? Maybe we don’t have the same understanding of equality. I see it as where bad things happen both sexes and we try to fix it for both. What’s your definition?

        • Nathan

          Strawmen make for better scarecrows than debate partners. The article raises a lot of great points about the plethora of issues facing men, however just because feminism doesn’t devote itself to them shouldn’t mean that its cause is less worthy, or that it is opposed to the equality that all parties admit that they seek. The article ends on a very “Us vs Them” note. That at least is what irks me most.

          • thewatercarrier

            Did you accuse me of putting forward a strawman and then be so brazen as to say “shouldn’t mean that its cause is less worthy”? I’m aghast. I’m arguing for a movement to advocate for men’s rights because feminism advocate for women. As I believe in equality I never said that cause is less worthy. More mendacious for sure, but not less worthy.

          • Nathan

            “Well that’s sad”
            “What’s sad about wanting equality? Or is it just that equality doesn’t quite suit you? Maybe we don’t have the same understanding of equality.”

            You were implying that the guy before you didn’t support the idea of equality (or at least in the same sense that you did). My post was trying to point out that there are many reasons that someone can (and in my case, did) find this article sad that have nothing to do with equality (you can be supportive of equality while still taking an us vs them approach that neuters your whole message)

    • thewatercarrier

      As do I

  • Come on, man

    On the Kanin study you mentioned: the study was done in ONE small community with only 109 reports and no systematic methodology. It’s a poorly-done study, and most studies show lower rates of false rape accusations. Don’t cherry-pick results.

    More importantly, 60% of rapes are not reported and 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail. False rape accusations may be a problem, but rape is severely underreported to begin with. You are worrying about false accusations when most legitimate accusations aren’t even taken seriously.

    Finally, you’re reducing this issue to “men vs. women”, as if women are out to get men with false rape allegations and men are defenseless against the law. You’re ignoring more important inequalities in rape prosecution, like how male rape victims are faced with more victim-blaming and not taken as seriously, or how punishments for female perpetrators are less severe than those of male perpetrators.

    • Jake

      Are you seriously implying that because rape is under reported we shouldn’t worry about innocent peoples going to jail because of false accusations?

      Two wrongs don’t make a right. And an insensitivity to either of the issues should morally disqualify you from the debate.

      • Come on, man

        I never said that and I never even implied it. My point is that rape is severely underreported for many reasons – people are pressured into silence, shamed into silence, pushed to believe the rape was their fault, denied resources such as counseling, receive poorly done investigations, etc. Many methods to reduce the rate of false reports have the potential to not just reduce the rate of true reports that are ignored but also make things worse for the victims. My point is that if your goal is to reduce the rate of false reports, you need to outline a plan of action and prove that it won’t do more harm than good.

        • Jake

          So some innocent men are collateral damage for other rapists getting prosecuted? And we should base our laws on the minimization of rape at the likely expense of innocent men in jail?

          Our justice system was based around the idea that we would rather let a guilty person walk than put an innocent one in jail. Your comment is antithetical to that philosophy.

          • Come on, dude

            Again, I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply it. You’re arguing a strawman.

            One study found that 63% of rapists were repeat rapists, and the average rapist commits 5.8 rapes. Rapists have one of the highest rates of repeat offenses of all criminals. By not prosecuting rapists, you give them the opportunity to commit additional crimes. Your are letting a dangerous person on the loose and putting others at risk.

            Let me clarify, before you jump to any more conclusions: I am NOT advocating for the imprisonment of innocent people, nor am I blowing them off, nor am I considering them as “collateral damage”. I am just trying to illustrate that letting guilty people free also carries risks. We need to improve the justice system and how we investigate cases of sexual assault.

            Imprisoning innocent people is bad, and letting guilty people free is bad. This is a complicated issue. THAT is what I am arguing. I never argued that we should allow innocent people to be imprisoned.

            http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf

          • Jake

            Rape is fundamentally extremely difficult to prosecute. It’s a travesty. But, in my opinion, laws and university rules are biased against the accused (and getting progressively more biased) in order to compensate for the difficulty of prosecution. It is my opinion that we should err on the side of letting the rapist walk rather than put an innocent person in jail/expel that person. I think our country was founded on that principle, and it is one I agree with.

          • Come on, man

            OK then. What do you propose we do to reduce the number of rapes then, if we accept that we are going to let more rapists walk free?

          • Jake

            Address some of the issues that the author brought up towards the end of the his article. Address the education gap (maybe we need more male grade school teachers). Address the fact that too many guys grow up without strong male role models. Address facets of our society that set unrealistic masculine expectations for males. To specifically combat rape, perhaps try to create a culture where guys value themselves as much as girls do. Many guys give it up too easily.

            Guys are a function of their environment to the same degree girls are. If our guys are falling behind our girls, it is because we have failed them.

          • Come on, man

            Great ideas. You could have said that without arguing a strawman to make yourself look like some kind of savior and feminists look like awful man-haters that just wants to persecute innocent people (which, again, I never said and never implied). Your arguments could have stood up on their own without dragging appeals to emotion based on misrepresentations and lies.

          • Justice4All

            Funny how the only person who believes the well reasoned arguments provided by both Jake and the author is deemed a “strawman” by a person who is obviously hostile to men and views all men as rapists while dancing around the fact that several credible sources have found false rape accusations to be in the 10% – 40% range. Typical feminist tactic don’t let inconvenient facts disrail your propaganda against men. Keep following your ideology that if you tell a lie to enough people it will eventually be viewed as the truth, as the 1 in 5 false statistic is a great example.

          • IanC

            Well said, Jake.

          • driversuz

            Well since most rapists were sexually abused in childhood by their mothers or other female caregivers, may I suggest we stop ignoring violence committed by women?

          • IanC

            Why do ideological people like you, who are essentially left-thinking and taking the soft option, ALWAYS for ideologies, when life just ISN’T like that? Of COURSE we have to improve the justice system. That will ALWAYS be the case. But life in the real world means you cannot possibly get things right all the time. Nothing’s perfect, BUT it’s still better to err on the side of caution and let a few guilty people walk than imprison the innocent. That is worse! Moreover, if the guilty walks there is still a chance that he or she will be caught further down the line anyway, IF they continue. If they don’t, then it’s hte same result anyway, to that of putting them in jail to stop them. Well, they’ll be out again another day anyway, so there is no real, permanent solution anyway. But you CANNOT put innocent people away JUST in order to put the guilty away too, for the reasons I’ve given.

            Let me ask you, seeing as you’ve posed this question to someone else: How would YOU deal with this dilemma? And don’t use the cop-out line of ‘well we need to discuss other options’. Of COURSE, but that’s not a SOLUTION, it’s to let you off the hook and to delay, putting into the future, a solution which you could answer now if you have the courage, in stead of side-stepping responsibility for this, like all politicians seem to always do!

          • Jenna Wilson

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/03/emma-sulkowicz-mattress-rape-columbia-university_n_5755612.html

            Universities are biased against the accused? This girl started carrying her mattress around campus until her rapist was expelled from school. Three women had reported being raped by the same attacker, and yet the university still did not find him responsible. It is true that rape is difficult to prosecute, which is part of the reason why so few are actually prosecuted. Also, if you don’t give women a reason to falsely accuse you of rape, you probably don’t have anything to worry about.

          • Nathan

            1.) Three people accusing you doesn’t imply greater probability of guilt in an of itself. I know in this case CU was shown to be have a pretty flawed system, but as an overall rule the multiple accusations doesn’t really prove anything.

            2.) Considering how awful a problem that victim blaming already is in rape cases, I think we can agree that the last sentence is probably unnecessary.

          • Jenna Wilson

            1) Okay, good point. Perhaps it does not imply a greater probability of guilt, but it should deem a broader investigation, which it did not seem to accomplish.

            2) I’m not sure what I said, but I definitely did not mean to promote victim shaming.

          • Nathan

            1.) Definitely agree
            2.) I know it wasn’t what you meant, but when I was reading the last sentence I realized how similar the ideas of “If you don’t give person a person reason to falsely accuse you…” and “If you don’t wear skimpy clothing…” are. Just thought it was something to think about, sorry if it came off as rude.

          • Jenna Wilson

            No, it wasn’t rude it all! Thank you for pointing that out. It definitely came out differently than I had intended.

          • visionary_23

            Uh, someone carrying their mattress around school doesn’t prove anyone raped anyone. It’s frightening that you believe an attempt to prove something in the court of public opinion is actually proof of a crime being committed. If that were true, black people being lynched in the south were all guilty of crimes.

            Ms. Sulkowicz waited for months to report the crime to the police. Both the police AND columbia university found the man not guilty of a crime, even with columbia using even a laughably low “preponderance of evidence” standard for guilt. I’m confused as to what makes you feel he’s guilty, aside from merely believing her?

          • Jenna Wilson

            True, it doesn’t legally prove anything. And I did not say that I believed public opinion is proof of a crime. But rape is not a glorious thing. I cannot imagine someone making the effort to carry around the mattress that they were allegedly raped on for no reason. However, I did not read any legal transcripts and do not know the in’s and out’s of the case. I did not mean to imply that I did.

          • visionary_23

            Fair enough — but there are SEVERAL (and I mean several) instances of women being quite public with rape accusations that later they even confess to authorities to have made up. Many times it’s merely to prevent looking promiscuous to their respective social network — other times it’s as simple as being jilted and wanting a cause a previous lover pain.

          • Jenna Wilson

            And I’m sure there are equally many, if not more, instances of women who will never see their attacker serve time for a crime they committed.

          • visionary_23

            But regardless, our system of justice doesn’t rely on convicting people because accusers are being “public” with their accusations.

            In other words, I think it’s dangerous to even insinuate guilt because some woman is running around with a mattress on her shoulder when law enforcement and university officials haven’t charged or convicted the guy of anything.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Did you just blame the victim in cases of false allegation? Did you just say that men supply women with the reason to make a false allegation?

          • Jenna Wilson

            I don’t believe I did, and if I said something to imply that, I certainly didn’t mean that. In the Kanin case that the author bring up, the false accusations were either motivated by alibi, revenge, or attention. None of the attention cases identified an attacker. All of the revenge cases served as retaliation for some man’s actions. I am not saying that the man or victim is at fault. However, I do believe that one can avoid such circumstances in the first place. If I am a recovering alcoholic, I can avoid potential trouble by not going to a bar. If someone does not allow themselves to get into a potentially dangerous situation, then danger can be avoided, to some degree. I’m sure there are cases where there was no “dangerous situation” to be avoided, and the victim still found trouble. I would hope that our judicial system would be able to discern such accusation from a real one, but I know that is not the case.

            Again, I did intentionally blame the victim in the case of false allegations.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            “….if you don’t give women a reason to falsely accuse you of rape, you probably don’t have anything to worry about.”
            I must have imagined it.
            I don’t have much experience with false allegations, I’ve only been falsely accused 3 times, not a big sample set at all, but I have found that saying “No”, is the best way to get accused of all sorts of crap.

            “However, I do believe that one can avoid such circumstances in the first
            place. If I am a recovering alcoholic, I can avoid potential trouble
            by not going to a bar. If someone does not allow themselves to get into
            a potentially dangerous situation, then danger can be avoided, to some
            degree. I’m sure there are cases where there was no “dangerous
            situation” to be avoided, and the victim still found trouble.”

            How does this statement line up with “Teaching men not to rape” campaigns? Do we expect women to protect themselves from rape now? Should women avoid potential trouble? Why can’t we teach women not to scream rape falsely?

          • Octavian

            Basically, she did. “Don’t give her a reason to falsely accuse you” sounds a lot like “just don’t give him a reason to rape you” to me.

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Of course she did but it’s fun to watch her dig a bigger hole.
            Maybe if women didn’t give men a reason to hit them?

          • Charlie Hurd

            Your post is full of false information. The accused was not found to guilty in any of the cases mentioned. Mattress carrier may well be just a mentally imbalanced individual who seeks attention.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I never said he was found guilty. My point is that universities are not at all biased towards the attacker. One of these girl’s friends was punished by having to write a paper from the perspective of the alleged rapist. That doesn’t seem biased against the attacker, even if it was a false allegation, and if it was a true allegation, then that just seems cruel and unnecessary.

          • Charlie Hurd

            Quoting from your post: ” This girl started carrying her mattress around campus until her rapist was expelled from school.” No, I guess you just called him a rapist without evidence or official findings.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Okay, I apologize. *alleged rapist.

          • Bram

            And that’s how dead easy it is. You call someone a rapist without a shred of evidence. You are called on it. You apologise. Easy, job done. In the real world, you would have destroyed another life.

          • Justice4All

            What? Because some idiot carries a mattress around her campus that should automatically mean her allegations are factual? What planet do you come from? Quick lesson, in this nation one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by a qualified court based on factual evidence not theatrics.

          • Jenna Wilson

            And also in this nation, people have the right to a fair trial. From what I have read, that was not the case in this circumstance.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            YOu are a disgusting person! Blaming the victim of false allegations, sure he was asking for it. 96% women lie, google it. IN india, 53% rape cases are false, false allegations are rampant in our society and you are blaming the victim, Shame on you, you do not have fathers brothers or men friends. You disgust me.

          • Jenna Wilson

            If you had read my replies to this comment, you would see that I have tried to explain myself in making that comment and have realized that it came out in an inappropriate way. With that in mind, perhaps using the Kanin study, which suggests that a number of false accusations are initiated as revenge on the victim for their actions, is not accurate. Not to say that false accusations are justified in any way, because they are not, but that is what I had in my mind when writing that comment. Again, I have realized my error in words and did not intend it to be read as victim blaming.

            Actually, 100% of all people lie, not just 96% of women. Also, I agree that those statistics from India are horrifying, just as the rates of rape are, and society needs to address BOTH issues for men AND women.

            As I have also said in multiple posts, you have every right to judge my words, but you do not have any right to judge me as a person and I would appreciate it if you withheld personal attacks such as “you are a disgusting person” and “shame on you,” not just to me, but to any person.

          • Keepe811
          • Ohone

            “One study found that 63% of rapists were repeat rapists, and the average rapist commits 5.8 rapes. Rapists have one of the highest rates of repeat offenses of all criminals.”

            Where are you getting these “facts”.

            Thieves will only steal less than 5.8 times?

            “I am just trying to illustrate that letting guilty people free also carries risks.”

            The conviction rate for rapists is just as good as it is for other crimes.

          • Come on, man

            I cited the fact in that exact comment. Use your reading comprehension.

          • NWOslave

            If women were held to the same standard of what is called rape these days, around 90% of women would be incarcerated as rapists.

          • No

            You’re going to need a source for that. That just sounds hyperbolic and I can’t find anything online that comes close to substantiating that idea.

          • Ohone

            Use your reading comprehension.

            This

            ” Rapists have one of the highest rates of repeat offenses of all criminals.”

            Is the claim you need a citation for.

          • fidelbogen

            Do you condone the anonymous accusation system (for sexual harrassment/rape) that was put in place at Occidental College?

          • Come on, man

            Yes. Victims (male OR female) can be pressured or threatened not to report a rape or sexual assault (perpetrated by a male OR female), and this provides a safe way for them to report an incident if they are unable to do it in person. And before you fly off the handle, the college specifically says on the reporting website that they have a limited ability to respond to and investigate reports, seeing as they only receive limited information. Clearly it’s not some avenue to stamp a false rape charge on whomever you want; the claims need to have some merit to them in order for an investigation to be warranted.

            Also, I think it says a lot about the maturity and validity of the Men’s Rights Movement that they decided to troll Occidental’s reporting website, in case you weren’t aware. This site serves a valid purpose, and mocking it in the name of men’s rights makes the MRM look like a joke.

          • Ohone

            Men like yourself that support the rolling back of important legal rights and changing the definition of rape so that its impossible not to be a rapist, are fools – quite frankly.

            Its like knowingly sitting on the same branch you are cutting.

            Goes to show what a good job the feminists have done of brainwashing people, and the extent that women have control over men.

          • Hope springs eternal to the “white knight” that eventually a few crumbs of “gratitude” will come his way. It’s sad, really. It is an addict’s rationale that “the next fix” will finally match the expectation if only he just keeps on plugging, and pumping the feminist narrative. These men desperately need their consciousness raised before they end up bitter, alone, and devoid of all pride, perversely, a recipe for a “rapist”. On the other hand, those who find themselves surrounded by female feminists ought to carefully review their bank statement along with their biometrics as they have “easy mark” painted on their foreheads. Vampires love victims who voluntarily expose their veins as some sort of “penance” for the occasional, spare, politically-incorrect thought.

          • Ohone

            I sometimes wonder should we reach out to these idiots more.

            And they are very easy to deal with in heated public debates, like say the progressive blogs before I was banned – you just describe their behaviour and motivation to them, like you just have and they and the feminists there go quiet – because they all know the truth in it.

          • karen straughan

            Given what we know about repeat rapists (and there’s no evidence that the one-timers in that study were destined to remain one-timers, either–a couple of studies on convicted rapists in the 80s and 90s found the average number of undetected rapes per rapist in that sample was closer to 10 than 5), the exemption allowing a woman to seek treatment at an ER without a police report being filed seems destined to help rapists continue to reoffend. Why are there no campaigns trying to instil in victims a sense of social responsibility toward their rapist’s future victims? More than this, why are we leaving it to campus disciplinary committees to punish sexual misconduct, the best case outcome of which is that the rapist remains free to go somewhere else and find a different pool of victims?

            “On reporting: More victims may not be reporting their rapes, but the reasoning has changed over the past few decades. ‘A generation ago,’ the reasons were things like, ‘fear of not being believed; fear of being interrogated about and blamed for their own behavior, and what they were wearing. In short, they feared that they would be the one on trial.’ Today, ‘the perception of many victims has evolved.’ Now they don’t report for these reasons: ‘they don’t want their loved ones to know what happened; they’re ashamed themselves; they just want to put it all behind them.'”

            –Amanda Hess, quoting Scott Berkowitz, founder of RAINN

            Seems to me that if underreporting is a pervasive problem, it is not a problem of victims commonly perceiving a justice system that is unjust toward victims, or that cannot serve their needs.

            What is CASA or the “Affirmative Consent Act” going to do about these deeply personal reasons women tend to not report these days? How will legislation that essentially redesigns the net in such a way that MORE dolphins will inevitably end up getting caught along with the tuna encourage actual victims to report? These changes and measures further weaponize the system for the few unscrupulous women who make false complaints of rape, but they do NOTHING to impact the deeply personal motivations of victims who choose not to report.

            None of this is evidence-based. It’s hysteria-based. McMartin and its wake of 100 similar allegations against daycares and preschools was hysteria-based, as well, if I remember, with the media and government officials only fuelling the fire, never presenting the other side of the issue. How many innocent people got swallowed up in that debacle, during an era when due process had not even been eroded as far as now?

          • Bryan Scandrett

            Not entirely sure about the “…the few unscrupulous women who make false complaints of rape,…”

            Seems to me, 1. feminism is a conglomeration of false allegations, lying about all kinds of victimhood, not just the rape kind. F’instance, there’s a pile of allegations that don’t exactly match an allegation of rape. One woman put it about my friends that I might rape her. Never going in any stats but same effect, no police. But technically not an allegation of rape. Not even technically false, no matter my protestations. But still vicious slander.

            2. FA about rape is waaay more common than the 2% smoke screen. Rather than a weapon used by a few unscrupulous women, this vicious slander is the juiciest shame sandwich in the combat purse and is on the permanent menu. Seems to me and more than a few other men in my world, FA is the card up the sleeve of a very large section of the female population. Reading thru Jenna Wilson’s comments above, she sounds ready to use it should any man “give women a reason to falsely accuse you of rape.” For her, a woman’s accusation is enough.
            And for me that is precisely what they are after. The power to utterly destroy with a single word. And it’s more than a few who desire that power.
            If any woman thinks a man did it, he did!

            Nothing more than the word of the woman is required to convict any man of anything. And the investigators need to be under the same threat of violence FROM women and girls should they wish to seek supporting evidence.
            This isn’t some side issue of gynocentrism, this is the central premise, power on the battle field. As Uncle Joe used to say, “No man, no problem.
            FA is the gulags mechanism of gynocentrism.
            PS. A personal thank you from me for your body of work. Outstanding.

          • “Rather than a weapon used by a few unscrupulous women, this vicious
            slander is the juiciest shame sandwich in the combat purse and is on the
            permanent menu.” I think this is an incredibly powerful meme and just wanted to bring it into sharp focus. Thank you for it.

          • Keepe811

            Effects of Feminism On Men: https://vimeo.com/107815754

          • Come on, man

            Without feminism, women would never have gained the right to vote, been barred from many universities, schools, and careers, would not be allowed to own property, etc. Feminism has a long history.

          • Keepe811

            Education women is a WASTE OF TIME and a WASTE OF TAXPAYER MONEY. Here’s the proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGwfodPZkI

          • Bram

            That’s regurgitated nonsense unthinkingly splattered on this tread. Feminism has a dark and ugly history. Start reading Erin Pizzey and progress from there. Think “White Feather” campaign a century ago and then read “Women of the Klan”. It’s all out there, in all its monstrous glory.

          • Keepe811
        • fidelbogen

          So, you do admit that false accusation happens? And you do admit that it is a SERIOUS problem?

          Well, that’s progress anyway.

        • Ohone

          Most crimes are under reported.

          And of course of you define rape as loosely as feminists do,its going to look like there is under reporting, people don’t report rapes that were not rapes.

          Anyhow, rapes are nothing to do with false accusations of rape.

          They are two separate crimes.

        • karen straughan

          Due process and the presumption of innocence do not exist just because. They exist so that the state does not become an agent of oppression.

          Legislators have bent over backwards to tinker with sexual assault law in ways that subvert due process *specifically* to make it easier for women to report sexual assault, and for prosecutors to obtain convictions. The rules of evidence are different from those of any other crime, and court procedures have been adjusted. Every single change has been in favor of complainants. Large police departments have dedicated sexual assault units, where officers go through “victim sensitivity training”, and other exemptions have been enacted that, when put in context, seem almost obscene–for instance, if a person is taken to the ER with a gunshot wound, even if they swear up and down they shot themselves while cleaning their pistol, a police report will be filed because they won’t just take that person’s word for it that a felony hasn’t occurred. Yet a woman can walk into an ER and flat out state that she’s been raped–that a felony has occurred–and ER staff are not ALLOWED to contact police without her permission.

          In universities in the US, disciplinary panels have been *ordered* by the federal government to use a preponderance of evidence standard, and to completely hash due process protections for the accused (which has exposed universities to lawsuits brought by those accused).

          Yet somehow, despite all of these adjustments and improvements, we hear from feminists the exact same things we did in the 1970s. To listen to them, no progress has been made at all in either encouraging women to report their sexual assaults, or in punishing offenders.

          Every single change I’ve described has widened the breach into which innocent men may end up falling. The “new and improved” system will necessarily lead to more wrongful convictions–when exculpatory evidence can be considered inadmissible, when the burden of proof is lowered, this necessarily means that false cases cannot be weeded out properly by juries or judges–it is now up to the ethics of prosecutors to decline to prosecute (in jurisdictions where they are allowed discretion–no-drop policies are a thing in some places). As we saw with Mike Nifong re the Duke Lacrosse case, prosecutors are often no more reliable than anyone else when it comes to placing ethics ahead of grandstanding and publicity hounding.

          When a man rapes a woman, he is one individual victimizing another. When a woman makes a false complaint of rape it is no longer one individual victimizing another–the state or institution involved becomes a second victimizer, her accomplice.

          Due process and burden of proof exists to prevent that. It has been a fundamental aspect of the criminal system in western democracies since Blackstone not because anyone wishes for guilty men to go free, but because the only thing that stands between us and an oppressive government is a body of laws that limit the power of government to punish people. We hold our government to a higher standard of justice and fairness than we do the average joe because the government has the power, if we allow it, to inflict much more harm on individuals than the average joe does.

          So given all that, what are YOUR proposed solutions to YOUR prioritized problems (underreporting, genuine rapists being acquitted, etc)? Perhaps we should introduce preponderance of evidence in criminal courts? Perhaps we should eliminate the adversarial system altogether and introduce justice by committee (the type used during the Inquisition). I’m guessing we could have a 100% conviction rate in no time if we did that.

    • thewatercarrier

      You present lots of stats “Come on Man”, but oddly no sources for those stats. At least the letter written referenced sources. Outlandish stats don’t add anything to the discourse, you just look silly.

    • Author

      Hi, I’m the author here. You bring up some interesting points and I’m happy to respond
      to feedback. Might I add that if you chose to respond, please source your
      statistics or what you try to claim as fact.

      A lot of people in the MRM use the Kanin study as a methodologically strong
      case. If you can support with evidence that it’s a poorly-done study instead of
      just articulating your opinion I might be able to consider what you are saying.
      From my understanding, classifying rape is largely a grey area. You’ll see in
      this report by Lisak et al. (1) that 5.9% of rape claims were found to be
      false, and additionally 44.9% of cases did not legally proceed, and another 13.9% of
      cases were deemed to have insufficient information. So we can say 5.9% of rapes
      are false, but we can also say 64.7% of rapes are not legally proven to be
      true. To further corroborate my point on false rape, I’ll point you to the 2006
      meta-analysis by Rumney (2) which demonstrated false rape anywhere from 1.5 to
      90% of cases, with several reports claiming a greater than 40% false rape. The
      Kanin study has some criticism, but that is the nature of any scientific study and disagreeing with another scientist’s method doesn’t invalidate the results.

      The not reported statistic is a big concern, I could see how
      social constructs would dictate a society where young women may not go and
      report their offenders. But I also see how it is possible that young women are
      quick to pull the trigger on a rape accusation, and I am simply making that
      point. I am not telling women to not report rape, I am raising awareness to the
      fact that men’s lives can be ruined by an ambiguous classification of what
      constitutes rape and a quick-trigger legal system where the accused has little
      influence.

      The assumption that I’m making this into a men vs. women is unjustified, I raise points of problems men face in today’s world. I don’t blame women for them, I ask women to acknowledge them. I like your last point, as those are both great issues that I just didn’t really get the time to research to get this finished in time for today’s Observer. My final note would be that this article should be read in its entirety and not
      cherry-picked into a false rape discussion. I make many points in this
      argument, not just talk about false rape.

      Thank you

      1.http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf (see
      table 2)

      2.http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=430300&jid=CLJ&volumeId=65&issueId=01&aid=430299

      • Come on, man

        Thanks for your response. Regarding the sources: I posted them in another comment.

        Just because the Kanin study is used by the MRM doesn’t make it a valid study. As for criticism of it, in the first source that you just posted, the author heavily criticizes the study for some of the reasons I mentioned before. Surely you saw the detailed and explicit criticism of the Kanin study if you read the Lisak paper.

        Men’s lives can be ruined by a false rape accusation. So can women’s. A man or a woman’s life can be ruined by rape, especially if the perpetrator walks free. You say you aren’t trying to make this a “men vs. women” thing, but you have only ever talked about how a woman making a false rape accusation could ruin a man’s life. This should not be a “men vs. women” issue, this should be a “people vs rape” issue.

        As I mentioned in a previous comment, things like promoting bystander awareness, dispelling rape myths, and ensuring thorough, quick, and accurate investigations will protect rape victims and innocent people that are accused.

        • Aguy

          “Men’s lives can be ruined by a false rape accusation. So can women’s.”

          Citation needed.

          • Chris

            Perhaps not in the system of today, but it’s important to consider if we’re trying to move towards a more gender-egalitarian society.

        • visionary_23

          Men’s lives can be ruined by a false rape accusation. So can women’s.

          Show us when that’s happened in practice?

      • Ohone

        Lisaks study didn’t try to find the true rate of false accusations, all it does tell us what they baseline rate is.

        Kanins is the only one that exists that attempted to find the true rate. The others don’t try to count the number of undetected false accusations.

    • Ohone

      It is small (but was replicated 3 times) and most other studies do show a lower rate – but Kanin’s are the only ones that tried to find the true rate of false accusations.

      “More importantly, 60% of rapes are not reported and 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail”.

      This is fallacious reasoning. False accusations and rapes are two different crimes, besides the conviction rate for rape is as good as it is for other violent crimes while the false accusation rate is much higher.

      “most legitimate accusations aren’t even taken seriously.”

      Citation needed.

      • Come on, man

        Kanin’s study has been heavily criticized for severe flaws. This source explains what was wrong with it, starting on page 6, and then analyzes studies with sound methodologies, most of which found rates of false accusation to be <10%. http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf

        You're going to need a citation on the "conviction rate for rape is as good as it is for other violent crimes".

        97% statistics: https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

        You tell me; if 40 rapes are reported and only 4 result in a conviction, even if 20 of those were false reports (based on the seriously flawed Karin study), 16 actual rapists walked away totally free after an investigation and/or trial. Even by those conservative estimates, that's horrendous and shows a seriously flawed system for investigating rape and sexual assault.

        • Ohone

          Yes we know people with an agenda to say false accusations are an anomaly criticized it and that like all studies there are methodological flaws.

          Its still the only one that tried to find the true rate.

          Your a study that shows 10%, shows the baseline figure, it doesn’t show the number of undetected false accusations.

          >You’re going to need a citation on the “conviction rate for rape is as good as it is for other violent crimes”.

          You are going to need a source showing the rate is lower than that for other crimes.

          Here is the method feminists use to create the illusion rape has a lower conviction rate.

          http://straightstatistics.org/article/how-panic-over-rape-was-orchestrated

          Your RAINN statistics are meaningless. They don’t measure the conviction rate verses the reporting rate.

    • Grumpy Old Man

      You threw out that 60% unreported number which is put out By RAAIN using SCVS so looked at the data. What I discovered put’s into question the efficacy of RAAIN’s other stats based on this number including your “97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail” stat. I may look into those next:

      According the the NCVS survey the male statistics show they report 36% of
      Rapes/Sexual Assaults leaving a 64% unreported, with the sample size small and unreliable. Female reporting is 58% with 42% unreported.

      NCVS 2013
      Victimization Type 2013
      Rape/Sexual Assault 300,165

      Male 34,057
      Yes, reported to the police 8,278 !
      No, did not report to the police 22,779 !

      Female 266,107
      Yes, reported to the police 96,278
      No, did not report to the police 165,375

      36% OF MALES REPORTED TO POLICE(note! Interpret data with caution, based on 10 or fewer sample cases or the coefficient of variation is greater than 50%.)

      58% OF FEMALES REPORTED TO POLICE

      If anything is grossly under reported it is male victimization of sexual assault:

      https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
      http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=nvat
      http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=nvat
      http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=nvat

      • Come on, man

        I said nothing at all about rape being a “men vs. women” issue. Males do underreport rape, and male victims face more shame and victim blaming than female victims do. I do not disagree with you; what you are talking about is a real inequality that men face. Having to “try your best to obtain consent” is not inequality, as the author seems to suggest.

    • Aguy

      “60% of rapes are not reported”

      If they’re not reported, how would you know?

      “97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail”

      How would you know how many rapists there are? Do you have a crystal ball? Did they all drop by your house one afternoon to confess?

      Dubious statistics are dubious.

      • Jenna Wilson

        There are statutes of limitations on sexual violence in most states and most cases. (https://www.rainn.org/pdf-files-and-other-documents/Public-Policy/Legal-resources/2012/Statute%20of%20Limitations%20Summary.pdf) There are many cases in which people are victim to sexual violence, hide it due to shame, pressure, etc., and then find out later when they are ready that it is too late to make a case against their attacker. Rape is a traumatic event and it takes time for the victim to feel comfortable enough to deal with the rape. Furthermore, the statistic is that 60% of rapes are not reported to the police, which was left out in the post. (https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) Rapes can be told to family, friends, or therapists in confidence without it ever getting to the police.

        • Nathan

          What I’m most curious about is why there’s such a drop off from reports to arrests. Anyone able to shed some light on that? Is it all a matter of statues of limitations?

          • visionary_23

            Plenty are due to lack of evidence extant to being able to prosecute. Jenna has quoted only RAINN handouts, a group which is inherently pro “it must be some form of bias/discrimination/whatever”. Some of it “may” be that, but rape is, using FBI data, absurdly difficult to prosecute as a ridiculously commonly practiced physical act (intercourse) itself usually doesn’t implicate a crime (rape) has occurred by default. It’s no wonder that the Innocence Project exonerates men erroneously convicted of rape more than any other crime.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I have no sources on this, but I suspect it is due to the nature of rape and sexual assault cases. They are quite difficult to prove.

          • visionary_23

            More specifically, there’s often not enough evidence to prove if the accusation has merit.

          • Mark Neil

            I believe that well over 50% of reports never go any further because the reporters themselves withdraw the accusation, or refuse to co-operate further.

        • Octavian

          Note that the claim that 97% of rapists go free is patently false. Some simply arithmetic: if there were one rapist for each rape, then the 97% would make sense, but since the majority of rapists commit multiple rapes, then in fact the actual percentage of rapists who are convicted is about 3%*the average number of rapes per rapist; if, as one poster claims, is 5.8 per rapist, then that means that in fact nearly 20% of rapists are eventually convicted (they are of course generally convicted of only a fraction of the offenses they actually commit, just as most criminals get away with the majority of their crimes, just eventually get caught for one). Also, RAINN’s number assumes that 100% of rape reports are true; obviously not the case. Lastly, some rapists die before they ever get the chance to be convicted (rapists do tend to come from ‘risk-seeking’ populations’). Overall, the percentage of rapists who get caught must therefore be many times 3%. Certainly greater than 20% (that’s assuming a <5% false accusation rate, very modest) and likely much higher than that. Which would be fairly similar to the conviction rates for other classes of criminals.

      • ManYunSoo

        The 97% is based on these stats in this image:
        https://www.rainn.org/images/get-information/Statistics/jailed-rapists.jpg

        Which assumes
        – every rape that is reported is true
        – every rape that leads to an arrest is true
        – every rape that leads to prosecution is true
        – every rape that leads to a felony conviction is true

        Which is obviously shown to be false just by browsing the main page of http://www.innocenceproject.org/

        • karen straughan

          It also assumes that every rapist only rapes once.

        • Mark Neil

          It also relies heavily on the implication of these rapists being men. Part of the statistic relies upon the fact many rapists who are convicted still don’t see the inside of a jail, but looking in the news, the only rapists I ever see walking free from convictions are the female rapists of male children. The teachers and babysitters who molested their students and wards, then got suspended sentences and probation. Then these rapists gone free are lumped into genderless statistics, and used to bludgeon men.

    • fidelbogen

      The issue is not “men v. women”, but “men v. feminists”, and I think you are aware of that critical distinction, too. But you are obfuscating it — which is just the sort of thing a feminist would do.

      So. . . if you are a feminist, why don’t you admit it?

      Why are so many feminists these days attempting to hide their feminism, and fly under the radar? I can’t help but wonder. . .

      • Come on, man

        You’re saying the issue is “men v. feminists”, and the issue at hand is false rape accusations. What point are you trying to make: that feminists set out to make false rape accusations? You are just tossing the word around as an insult, making unfounded straw-man accusations, and making ridiculous insinuations about why people hide their feminism (which they don’t…).

        And since you asked, yes, I am a feminist, for all of the reasons Emma Watson brought up. I also support men in issues where they face inequality. The two are not antithetical. You can support women where women face inequalities while still supporting men where men face inequalities.

        • visionary_23

          You can support women where women face inequalities while still supporting men where men face inequalities.

          One wonders why feminism hasn’t done that second part for the last 50 years.

          • Come on, man

            Why should feminists support men’s rights if the MRM won’t support feminism? Equality goes both ways.

          • visionary_23

            Because feminism is the established ideology on gender relations, so much so that academia, government, and culture at large looks to them for guidance on gender issues. And they’ve been around for over half a century. The onus is on them to include Men’s Rights as a legitimate part of their agenda of “gender equality”.

            As an aside, the present day MRM has only existed for the last 5 years, and exists PRECISELY because feminists have been so utterly apathetic towards men’s issues for so long.

      • Jenna Wilson

        Hi there. My name is Jenna Wilson. I’m a feminist. I signed on with my real name and everything.

        • karen straughan

          have a cookie, dear.

      • João Pedro Santos

        By definition, feminism consists in fighting for equal rights. Therefore, if you oppose feminism, you are opposing gender equality and so your opinions don’t deserve respect.

        • IanC

          Gee you have completely missed the whole point of feminism. Feminism is an oxymoron, mate. It cannot, by definition BE for ‘equality’. It’s for equal rights for WOMEN, and then some! It IGNORES issues men face, while at the same time SAYS it fights for men. Name me ONE thing they have fought for, for men and ONLY men? They have not, and you cannot answer that question, can you? I’m talking ‘answer’ not merely ‘reply’ which is what feminists and mangina do.

          So if YOU support equality – and I hope you do – then you’ll NOT be a a feminist OR support their sexist causes that ONLY pander to women when in fact women have MORE, FAR more rights than men in western democracy. Where were you born? Under a rock?

          I support egalitarianism and am an anti-feminist, as I DO believe in equal rights.

          • João Pedro Santos

            You don’t believe in equal rights, you are a stupid misogynyist who resorts to strawmen.

          • IanC

            So let’s see: You start to lose the argument, so as usual you resort to personal insults. Typical feminist, but moreover because you are a white knight. You are a traitor to men, AND women.

            I have nothing more to say to you, you’re obviously deeply blinkered and indoctrinated. You are not a real man, but maybe a female pretending to be one? Who knows.

            Go on, ruffle some feather elsewhere. You’re obviously a troll!

    • marcetienne

      According to the FBI, “The unfounded rate, or
      percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is
      higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of
      forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all
      Index crimes was 2 percent.” See p. 24 at http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf

      But that figure is very conservative. Most false claim are never “proven”
      false, but are just buried in the “unsubstantiated” category. And the figure does not include false claims
      made to non-police entities like universities.

      In a nine-year study of 109 rapes reported to the police in a Midwestern city,

      Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin reported that in 41% of the cases the

      complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred. In a follow-up
      study of rape claims filed over a three-year period at two large Midwestern
      universities, Kanin found that of 64 rape cases, 50% turned out to be false.
      Among the false charges, 53% of the women admitted they filed the false claim
      as an alibi. Kanin, EJ, Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994.

      In
      a study by the U.S. Air Force, about one-forth of rape
      accusers recanted just before taking a lie detector test or after
      failing one. Further research found 60% of the accusations were
      false. The most common reasons given were spite or
      revenge, feelings of guilt or shame, or to cover up an
      affair. McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. “False Allegations.” Forensic
      Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special
      Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64.

      These
      studies have small samples. But that
      doesn’t mean they’re wrong. It means we
      need more studies that actually look into this problem honestly instead of
      catering to political correctness.

      According
      to an expert quoted in the CBS News story below, “for a
      four-year period from 2003-2007, 31 per cent of sexual assault claims that
      Ottawa Police investigated were dismissed as unfounded — that is, they never
      happened — as opposed to unsubstantiated, where there isn’t enough evidence to
      follow the case.” http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/barrhaven-sexual-assault-never-happened-police-1.1125196

      Falsely
      accused men are disproportionately African-American men. http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php

      According
      to a 1996 Department of Justice report, “in about 25% of the sexual assault
      cases referred to the FBI, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic
      DNA testing. It should be noted that rape involves a forcible and
      non-consensual act, and a DNA match alone does not prove that rape occurred. So
      the 25% figure substantially underestimates the true extent of false
      allegations. Connors E, Lundregan T, Miller N, McEwen T. Convicted
      by juries, exonerated by science: Case studies in the use of DNA evidence to
      establish innocence after trial. June 1996 http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

      A study
      in India
      found 18% of rape accusations are false and are often “coached.”

      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delhi/18_rape_cases_false_Study/articleshow/3910217.cms

      But more
      recently the Commission on Women in Delhi
      was examining rape claims to advocate for rape victims and found 53% of the
      claim were false and often motivated by vengeance, and that this was an
      alarming increase in light of new stringent anti-rape laws. These feminists were honest and confronted
      the problem, unlike American feminists who cover the problem up. http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-53-rape-cases-filed-between-april-2013-and-july-2013-false-delhi-commission-of-women-2023334

      The myth that only two percent of rape
      accusations are false, often falsely attributed to FBI data, is
      not credible and has been debunked. Greer, The Truth Behind
      Legal Dominance Feminism’s ‘Two Percent False Rape Claim’ Figure, 33 Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review
      947 http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v33-issue3/greer.pdf

      Feminist groups not only downplay the
      statistical reality of false accusations but have been eroding the due process
      rights of the accused especially on college campuses, such as by lowering the
      standard of proof to a mere preponderance of evidence, removing the right to
      challenge the accuser, and placing the decision in the hands of college
      administrators who will essentially wind up being very biased kangaroo court
      type “hearings.” http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903596904576516232905230642

      There is more of a false accusation culture
      than “rape culture” on campuses. The
      Duke Lacrosse players were kicked off their team, vilified, and mobbed at their
      homes before there ever any hearing.
      They were lucky to have had enough money behind them to hire good
      attorneys. Most men do not. Brian Banks spent years in jail before his
      accuser admitted no rape occurred. These
      stories are the tip of the iceberg.

      Here
      are just a few sample stories about false accusations:

      Four
      young men traumatized by false rape accusations.

      http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/18/hofstra.case/index.html

      Law
      school graduate convicted of found guilty of falsely accusing ex boyfriend of
      rape.

      http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/05/law-graduate-guilty-falsely-accusing-boyfriend-rape

      6 falsely
      accused young men rescued by video of orgy directed by accuser.

      http://www.ocweekly.com/2006-02-09/news/great-dick-babe/

      Innocent man falsely accused of rape to win back lover.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=444298&in_page_id=1770

      The Brian Banks story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)

      U.K. judge jails “skillful
      actress” who falsely accused man of rape.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1939368,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=11

      Aberdeen pair admit falsely
      accusing man of rape. http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/aberdeen-pair-admit-falsely-accusing-man-of-rape-and-attack-1.580143

      Man
      released on rape charge after 22 years in prison.

      http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/10/22/planes.collide.in.midair.news12longisland

      Yes,
      sometimes women lie about rape. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

      No matter
      what the numbers are, there is no excuse for the lack of attention to the
      problem. Falsely accused persons are victims too, and to deny or
      downplay the experiences of those victims is a hypocritical form of
      victim-blaming.

      Much more
      attention and research is needed in this area. False accusers
      should be prosecuted and face same or similar punishment their accused
      could receive. And the names of the accused should be
      protected as much as the names of the accusers. For more, see http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/

    • Chris

      “More importantly, 60% of rapes are not reported and 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail.”

      If they don’t go to jail, then the court ruled them innocent, didn’t it?

      So then the inevitable question is: how do you know they’re rapists? What standard do you apply to determine that?

      • Bram

        It’s an invitation to re-introduce vigilante justice of the mob variety. In other words, it’s an invitation to roll back civilization.

    • visionary_23

      More importantly, 60% of rapes are not reported and 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail.

      Under what standard have you adjudicated that those rapists are, indeed, rapists? Were they convicted in a court of law and then told to walk free? Or is it just your feminist gut assertion?

      And how would ANYONE know how many rapes aren’t reported?

      Given your use of the above, I find it highly ironic that you would question the validity of any statistics presented.

    • Bryan Scandrett

      “…as if women are out to get men with false rape allegations and men are defenseless against the law.”

      Err,…actually a great big stinking pile of that has been, and is still going on. Not about to stop any time soon.

      On a personal level, 2.5 false allegations to date. Most definitely is used to “get” men. Let me know what the defense is. (Non-violent)

    • V8beetle

      No offense, but it is a men vs. women issue when for the better part of the last 200 years, legal and academic rape definitions have excluded women as perpetrators, and men as victims. To this day the CDC still calls made to penetrate anything but rape. Wanna talk equality? How about not denying male victims of female perpetrators. Much like this reddit user who doesn’t get it, many women don’t get it. http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2io497/did_i_rape_my_first_ever_boyfriend/

      You wanna sit and play semantics to lessen legal culpability? And you wonder why many men are pissed off? The same thing happens with DV. Women hit guys, guys hit back, and the woman claims victim status when she started it? Please.

    • Fraga123

      More feminist BS statistics. Thank you for playing to the stereotype.

      Didn’t you morons take math in high school?

    • Divided Line

      Its methodology is consistent, systematic, and transparent. That and the airforce study are the most comprehensive studies *that exist.* Both put the rate of false accusations far above the 8% figure. You act as if there is some competing and comparable study to judge them against. There isn’t.

  • Greg

    Men’s problems are women’s problems, and vice versa. There will never be gender equality until this is realized.

  • Lynn

    This is a really disappointing article unfortunately. You cite that falsely reporting rape is a problem, but if you understood the shame and pain that comes from having to get an invasive rape kit done or the public harassment that many rape victims get for their report, you would see that false reporting rarely happens. People dont willingly go through that if they haven’t been assaulted in some way. Additionally, the public nature of the investigation is one reason that many people choose NOT to report a sexual assault.

    I understand that both men and women are affected by problems every single day, but your point is actually weakened by putting down women as false reporters. You effectively prove why we need feminism.

    • Anon

      Last year two of the rape accusations in Zahm House were dropped and both times the girls involved admitted to making them up. Any woman can do that, and the law is in her favor. If both individuals are intoxicated when they engage in sexual activity, and maybe the next day one of the two parties “regrets” what they did, why is the man the only one who is punished? If Feminists want gender equality, they should start there. THAT doesn’t sound like equality to me.

      • Come on, man

        You’re right; there is a double-standard to some degree in the way rape is prosecuted when women are perpetrators or when the situations are ambiguous. However, it’s wrong to assume that feminists don’t care about those situations, or that they’re only looking out for themselves when they talk about gender equality. Also, the kind of situation you brought up is NOT representative of all or even most rape accusations. Finally, why do we need to “start there”? There isn’t a dichotomy of “protecting women vs. protecting men”, like we need to pick one to protect first before moving onto the next. We can make policies and act in ways that support victims and innocent people, both male and female, in rape accusations, i.e. encouraging thorough, quick, and accurate investigations into rape accusations.

        • thewatercarrier

          “it’s wrong to assume that feminists … or that they’re only looking out for themselves when they talk about gender equality”. Are you quite mad? You, I, and everybody on this page knows that’s that’s exactly what they’re doing. Who exactly are you taking to 😮 You’ve gone from the sublime to the ridiculous in a single post.
          That said, I do think it’s a pity that both sexes have thus far been unable to properly advocate for each other. I really see feminism as being the major blocking factor.

          • No

            Now you’re just being ridiculous. Did you take a poll of everyone on this page? Did you ask every feminist if they don’t care about anyone but themselves and get a consensus “yes”?

          • thewatercarrier

            Your right, I didn’t consider that this page might actually be an exception. I stand corrected.

          • Factory

            He said everyone here knows feminists are only looking after themselves while espousing ‘gender equality’. He did not say ‘every feminist here only cares about themselves’.
            This is typical Feminist strawmanning.
            And yes, everyone here DOES know this is what Feminism is doing. Not only that, your mischaracterization and attack based on such is typical Feminist response.
            You people can’t take criticism, and NEVER will you admit you were wrong…about anything.
            but gee, why won’t men sign up to take some more blame, be made fun of, etc? Why won’t people believe the dictionary definition of feminism is accurate? It MUST be Patriarchy.
            Evil men.
            God I love Feminists and their belief they aren’t nuttier than a Planters factory.

          • No

            That’s really impressive that you managed to draw all of those outlandish conclusions from two questions – conclusions about millions of feminists from one internet stranger. And you’re accusing other people of strawmanning and mischaracterizations? LOL.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I don’t think that is what feminism is doing at all and any “feminist” who acts that way is not truly a feminist. Feminism isn’t about playing the “blame game,” and I don’t know any feminist, or people in general, who make fun of men simply because they are men. Also, men aren’t to blame for our screwed up society; society as a whole is to blame. Everyone is pretty nutty in their own way, not just feminists.

          • Nathan

            Though, to be fair, feminism has a pretty broad definition (which is one of the challenges it faces). When you have a goal so open-ended, you end up including by default a lot of extreme voices (see tea party in Republican party) that can end up dominating the narrative. It’s not entirely honest to say those people aren’t really feminists unless you define feminism more broadly than “working towards gender equality”.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I see your point, but I think there are clear examples of “feminists” who seem to act agains gender equality, which is part of the definition of feminism. For example, if a “feminist” is out there bashing men simply because they are men, they are not supporting gender equality, and this not supporting feminism.

          • Nathan

            Equality is attainable by two (3?) ways:
            Bringing the weaker side up to the stronger side or bringing the stronger side down to the weaker side’s level (or some combination of the two).

          • Jenna Wilson

            Hmm I guess I never thought about it that way… I guess I always imagined it bringing the weaker side up to the same level, rather than bringing the stronger side down. That is a very good point. Thanks for that bit of insight!

          • Nathan

            That generally is the more sustainable and useful approach. It’s an issue I have though with a lot of groups that throw around the term “privilege”. Privileges (such as white or male) often seem to be implied to be bad things, but aren’t they ultimately the advantages that we want everyone to enjoy?

          • visionary_23

            The issue is that the idea of “privilege of group A” is hurled around, particularly by feminists, in order to secure “privilege for group B” without ever PROVING the “privilege of group A” exists in current data.

            For instance, take “male privilege”, for example. In the US, the average male has a higher rate of deaths due to suicide, to heart disease, to cancer, to homicide, to occupational death, to 12 of the top 14 causes of death, to early death overall, a lower educational rate in high school and in college, lower employment rates, higher incarceration rate, false incarceration rate, homelessness rate, higher victimization of violence rate, of overall crime, of rape (both due to the prison population and when female “made to penetrate” is included in data), control the minority of wealth overall, the minority electorate overall, pay the majority of all taxes, and yet every gender based government program for the above is FOR WOMEN. We, hilariously, don’t even have a federal men’s department of health, despite those first stats.

            Yet, virtually each of those stats PARALLEL that of black people versus whites (outside of payment of tax).

            In other words, when those stats affect black people, we’re very rightly concerned — and argue that white leads in those stats is “white privilege” and rightly push for social programs to help blacks.

            Yet when it’s men, then it’s suddenly not material to the discussion of “privilege” — because it would force us to contemplate that women effectively are doing absurdly well on average in virtually every meaningful stat on the whole, and would force us to give up this notion of “male privilege” and push for social programs helping men. Which feminism, simply put, has virtually never done solely to help downtrodden men.

          • Guest

            Hmm I guess I never thought about it that way… Thanks for that! I guess you are right that under the definition, those people I described could be considered feminists.

          • Nathan

            Or more importantly, can consider themselves feminists and it’s difficult for more moderate feminists to dismiss their claims. See moderate republicans and the tea party

          • Octavian

            I could not disagree more. Equality is not about taking away from one group and giving to another. Many feminists seem to believe that: that women have less ‘stuff’ and therefore any loss men suffer, in any realm, is by definition a move toward equality. Rights are not transferable, you cannot compensate one groups injustice by incurring injustice on another. If two groups are to be equal, then they must be given the same legal rights in each and every domain of our lives; it’s about giving one side more rights hear to compensate for a supposed deficit somewhere else. It’s like passing out marbles. Real equality would require women to accept equality in areas that would a loss of advantage; for example, they would need to accept longer ‘male’ prison sentences for crimes, for example. And these are not separate issues; women’s deficits in society are intricately linked to their privileges. Women earning more money means more women dying at dangerous (but higher paying) working class jobs; women being taken as seriously as men as citizens and leaders means being held held equally responsible for crimes they might commit as men in the justice system. It means no more being reported along side children in casualty statistics indicating that a woman being killed is somehow worse than a man being killed. As long as a woman is reluctant to hand in her privileges, she has no right to demand to be treated equally in other areas. It has to be equality across the board, or it’s not equality at all.

          • Nathan

            I think you missed where I was going with this. I was only citing the different ways you can make a society equal, not that the different methods are all equally effective or morally sound.

          • visionary_23

            Yes, but Jenna, what you’re doing is what’s called the “no true scotsman” fallacy, which feminists often do to try to distance themselves from what plenty of powerful and self-avowed feminists do in practice.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Yes, and in reply to another comment, I understand that and see that. I took some criticism. There are extreme, man-hating feminists, but I still do not think that means that all feminists are necessarily that way. I still claim to be a feminist, even if that puts me in the same category. If you think that makes me a man-hater, then so be it. I assure you I am not, but those are just words.

        • Doug Lefelhocz

          “You’re right; there is a double-standard to some degree in the way rape
          is prosecuted when women are perpetrators or when the situations are
          ambiguous. However, it’s wrong to assume that feminists don’t care
          about those situations, or that they’re only looking out for themselves
          when they talk about gender equality.”

          I agree that it is wrong to assume this. It is however, rather easy to prove…

          Note how “made to penetrate” got classified as something other than rape by the 2010 NISVS and the 2011 NISVS. Then note how feminists have chosen to report on the 2011 NISVS… by basically ignoring or minimizing male rape victims. This article sums things up nicely… http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape/

      • What is the source?

        When did the women admit to making them up? I can only find articles that say that they “chose not to press charges”, which can happen for a variety of reasons that aren’t making them up. (for instance, stigma associated with having a trial/ having your parents find out/ starting litigation against someone who is most likely a friend or acquaintance/ not wanting to ruin the life of the person who raped you, but wanting him to know that his actions weren’t okay and should not be repeated)

    • thewatercarrier

      Fair enough, but as it’s clear that feminism doesn’t care about the problems of men and boys then they need their own advocacy group. That, I think, was the letter writers point. Does this mean we all agree? How novel.

      • Nathan

        But the author goes beyond that and says that no only is feminism not enough, but that they CAN’T SUPPORT IT. I don’t see why supporting feminism and having advocacy groups to deal with the challenges facing men are mutually exclusive. This isn’t (at least in theory) a zero sum game

        • Factory

          Because to do so would require every Feminist to toss out the ideological underpinning of their Religion – Patriarchy Theory.
          Feminism is based on the vilification of men, the mischaracterization of their experience, and the ostracization of anyone speaking outside the dogma. To admit men have a problem worth consideration would be to drive a stake through Patriarchy Theory. To admit that men’s issues are a result of systemic bias in the institutions, and that Feminism is about as accurate when describing men as the KKK is when describing blacks or Da Joooooz, is anathema to the zealots whose self-identity is wrapped up in that hateful ideology.
          The beauty is, the more the pompous idiots lecture people on what feminism ‘really is’, the more they unravel the social restrictions that precluded criticism of Feminism. When you are obviously delusional, lying, or manipulative (or all three), people tend to feel free to tell you to piss off.
          Society is telling Feminist SJW’s to piss off. Feminists are trying to spin that as ‘misunderstanding’. It’s not. We know feminism is evil as evil gets, and some of us aren’t afraid to stand up and accuse them.
          There will be more of us. Feminism will lose. And I hope to God they are all prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

          • Anon

            I think society might collapse if feminists ultimately have their way. Many men are giving up on relationships and women in general.. They called it “men going their own way”. The same thing happened in Rome just before the fall of the Empire.

          • Nathan

            What would be an example of feminists “having their way”
            What do you see as the end goal for them?

          • Is this a joke?

            You are seriously going to break out sources if you think that feminists “having their way” will cause society to collapse.

          • thewatercarrier

            As it’s his opinion I think he’s his own source. I think it won’t come to societal collapse though. Even the McCarthy era finally came to an end, but there was certainly plenty of collateral damage. That’s as far as I see it going.

          • Jenna Wilson

            1) Feminism isn’t a religion; it is a movement. 2) Its underpinning isn’t patriarchal theory, it’s gender equality. Historically, women are on the lower end of the equality spectrum, but there certainly are areas where men lack some equality. 3) I think most feminists, myself included, would appreciate it if you gave them a chance before calling them “delusional, lying, or manipulative (or all three),” and as “evil as evil gets,” and condemning them to “prosecution for crimes against humanity.” This is the kind of prejudice that feminism is trying to combat.

          • Bram

            You sound like a reasonable person. However, you are still too wedded to the dictionary definition of the “movement” instead of daring to look at its very ugly inner core. Hatred is located there, convoluted conspiracy theories are located there, fear and loathing of male sexuality are located there. Once in power, as they are in many a campus kangaroo court, the ugly is splattered all over the place for all to see. And the fightback has begun. None too soon.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Thank you! I like to think I am reasonable…

            If the word “feminism” is tainted by the politics, then you don’t have to use that word. When I refer to feminism, I am referring to gender equality. You are welcome to use those words instead. However, I think that making an “anti-feminist” movement is just as destructive as the “anti-men” campaign that people claim feminism is.

          • Factory

            I’ve got 20 years of ‘dialog’ with feminists on these issues. Feminists have consistently behaved as if they are religious zealots, mocked or attacked the very possibility men may face issues of their own, and defended or waved away those feminists exhibiting truly disgusting anti male behaviour.
            I do not owe you, or any other feminist one iota of consideration until I see widespread evidence feminists are not all exactly as I have described. Primarily, because I spent a lot longer looking for the exception than you have even been aware there might be another viewpoint.
            I am free to think of your religion in any way I see fit. Furthermore, the marketplace of ideas, not some feminist PR campaign, will ultimately decide who, and what, feminists are. If the majority of people agree with me, that Feminism is a totalitarian hate cult focussed on attacking men (or masculinity) to gain power for itself – well, then I would say the problem is structural in Feminism, not ‘bad PR’.
            The beauty of all this, is seeing how you people react to finally being subject to criticism.

    • Aguy

      “if you understood the shame and pain that comes from having to get an
      invasive rape kit done or the public harassment that many rape victims
      get for their report, you would see that false reporting rarely happens.”

      And yet false rape accusations do happen, and many of them are for quite trivial, even criminal reasons: blackmail, false alibis, getting out of paying cab fare, revenge, avoiding accusations of cheating, to name just a few. Obviously none of those women were deterred by the “shame and pain” of reporting a rape, and one has to wonder if your “shame and pain” excuse is merely flapping a broken wing.

      • Jenna Wilson

        So are you going to accuse all women of making false accusations? Hmm…

        • Aguy

          Nope. Just calling bull on your bull. Keep putting words in my mouth, though. They taste like bacon.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I didn’t mean to put words into your mouth. This is just how I read your comment.

      • Lynn

        Well I don’t think we should pretend that it doesn’t exist, that is not at all what I’m saying. But let’s not cop out and say “Oh, women lie about rape and it’s just a huge issue men face” because rape is a legitimate issue that many people face. The idea that false reporting somehow undermines the legitimacy of true rape reports is a major problem within society, and that’s what I’m aiming to bring to light.

        Also thanks for the slight, you’re so sweet

  • Ugh

    Barfed a lil bit

  • Maleman

    Thank you for putting into words and statistics what many men feel on a daily basis.

  • ND offers classes on gender…

    You need to get a clue. PLEASE take a class on gender and LEARN SOMETHING. This is embarrassing.

    • Anon

      Classic Feminist response. Please try making a counter argument next time and actually add to the discussion, rather than just shaming people with different opinions than you.

      • Nathan

        They’re suggesting that the author take some time to study an issue that they feel passionate about in a college environment under a qualified and equally passionate professor. Seems like it would be a good fit to me

        • Factory

          Nope. They’re implying that disagreement with Feminism is only possible through ignorance about Feminism. Exactly like any religious zealot would answer.
          Feminism is a false religion. Feminists like ND are the ‘bible thumpers’ of the religion. And the MRM are ‘apostates’ of the Church of the Divine Feminine’.
          It’s hilarious to watch feminists unable to counter criticism with anything but variations on calling people heretics for their disbelief.

          • Nathan

            You say exactly like any religious zealot, but that’s also the same way anybody would feel discussing science to someone ignorant of it. Can you imagine listening to someone claim that gravity was a fairy tale? Wouldn’t you also suggest to them that they should do further research on the subject matter?

            That’s not zealotry (or at least, it’s not fair to immediately assume it is)

          • thewatercarrier

            I think it’s more like someone telling someone else that they can’t experience gravity because they haven’t gone to the “Gravity is caused by invisible elastic” University.

          • Nathan

            Do you feel that the field of gender studies is inherently incorrect (or biased against men)?

          • visionary_23

            I know you’re responding to thewatercarrier, but I’d argue that it’s inherently biased against men because gender studies invariably means studying gender “through a feminist lens”.

          • Factory

            Yes. Feminism is ‘proven science’. Sure. You bet.

          • Nathan

            Nah, just saying it doesn’t take zealotry to suggest that lack of understanding would lead to disagreements

          • Jenna Wilson

            They’re implying that ignorance about feminism leads to a misuderstanding about feminism, not a disagreement. The article lists reasons why he is against feminism, but if he actually understood feminism, he would find that most of his arguments actually do not discredit feminism in any way.

          • Doug Lefelhocz

            No, he would actually find that his arguments discredit feminism. See Emer O’ Toole’s graphic and think about what he’s said http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/09/not-a-feminist-move-on-men-women

        • Octavian

          What exactly do you think “You need to get a clue” means? It means, ‘you’re wrong, go get indoctrinated by people who agree with me.’ You can’t honestly believe it was a sincere request that the author seek an objective education, do you? “Get a clue” is pretty telling I think.

          • Nathan

            How is it indoctrination to listen to (potentially) contrary points of view? Why do you assume that a gender studies class would not be objective? And as impolite as “get a clue” is, it doesn’t imply that the person saying it isn’t serious in their request, only that they’re exasperated.

          • thewatercarrier

            Hmm. I don’t think I’d be way off the mark in suggesting that what she meant with “Get a clue” was “Get with the feminist program!”, and no better place for a man to be brought in line than in a gender studies class.

    • Bram

      Actually a history lesson about Europe 1933-1945 would yield similar results. Pay good attention to the side that eventually lost in that period of world history. These two anti-human religions have a lot in common. However while the first one was defeated on the battlefield unfortunately the latter managed to wriggle herself into academia. So it goes.

  • Oh wow

    This article is shocking and laughable at points, due to its lack of self-awareness. I will address some of the points you raise, but I do not have the energy to address every bit of commentary at the moment.

    I see you failed to address the issues of queer men, MOC, trans men, men in poverty, prisoners, or other disadvantaged groups of men. However, if you care to pick up any piece on intersectional feminism, you will see that feminists support and empower all of these groups.

    You ignore the absurdity of the HeForShe movement, feeling that men need an invitation to feminism, when men have spent centuries ignoring and belittling female voices and autonomy. Not only does the HeForShe campaign ignore men like yourself who choose to mock feminism and women’s autonomy, but it also reinforces a gender binary that does not accurately reflect the reality of the gender spectrum.

    You do not mention male victims of sexual violence, merely complain that it’s so difficult for men to NOT rape, which is a despicable and privileged complaint. Additionally, you use an isolated study with inflated results, as opposed to the commonly accepted statistics that rape is falsely reported about as often as any other crime – 2% of the time. Also, men are disproportionately responsible for violence committed against women, and are in fact one of the greatest killers of women. If you truly cannot see the privileges that men, specifically white, heterosexual men hold in our society, then I advise you to take a look at the faces in our Congress, in the CEOs of our top companies, on Wall Street, and at the judges who make decisions in this country. If you do not see the stigma and hate expressed towards survivors brave enough to share their stories and go through the arduous process of reporting an assault, please look at the case of Columbia University, which is highly recent and relevant. Also, you might be surprised to learn that the majority of rapists are not expelled, and in fact remain on college campuses, subjecting survivors of their assaults to future encounters.

    When you address cases of mental disorder (which you only do fleetingly, and looking at one specific diagnosis), you ignore that women have alarmingly higher rates of depression, anxiety, and eating disorders than men. As it is Irish State of Mind week, you could have very easily expanded on this topic, as well as addressed the mental health problems faced disproportionately within the LGBTQ community, especially with polysexual and transgender people.

    Honestly, so much of this article is hard to digest, and disappointing to know that a fellow Notre Dame student could be so ignorant of important issues faced around the world, in our country, and on this campus. You do not address global issues at all, or issues faced by disadvantaged groups. Men are overwhelmingly advantaged in this society as a whole, although there are subgroups (which I have mentioned and you have not) that are also oppressed, silenced, and marginalized. If you care to have further discussion, please do a bit more research on the topics you address, as well as looking at other definitions of feminism, by queer women, WOC, and international feminists.

    • Nathan

      A quick question about the school rape cases point. You mention that many rapists are not actually expelled. Is this because they are not found guilty, or that they are and the school is just unwilling to expel them?

      • Oh wow

        As I mentioned in my initial comment, I think the CU cases are relevant to your question. Many rapists are not reported (for a variety of reasons), the majority that are convicted only receive a “slap on the wrist” punishment, and more often than not, they are not convicted – even when there are multiple charges brought against them.

        • Nathan

          Multiple charges doesn’t automatically translate to guilt. That said, Columbia definitely seems to have a poor system in place for dealing with sort of nonsense. Thanks for the clarification.

    • Factory

      But…but….waht about the wimminz?

    • Doug Lefelhocz

      Prisoners was briefly touched on… “females face an 18.51 months sentence compared to 51.52 months for men on average.”

      The death penalty in practice usually only applies to men, and oftentimes *legally* could only get applied to men. Men make up the majority of victims of violence in the world. In the U. S. men don’t have an explicit right to genital integrity, while women do. Men have to register with the Selective Service System and face penalization if they don’t do so. Women don’t have to do so. Men don’t have a right to legal parental surrender, while women do via abortion *or adoption*. Men die earlier on average. Boys suffer from corporal punishment more often than girls. Male rape victims get classified as something other than rape victims by the Center for Disease Control… http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape/

      The U. S. has a National Council on Women and Girls. The U. S. does NOT have a Council on Men and Boys in spite of a several year proposal to create one.

      To reiterate one point… men are disproportionally the victims of violence.

  • are you kiddin me

    are you kidding me

  • um

    This post makes me sad. Are you actually using “it sucks having to be so careful getting consent” as an argument against feminism?
    Faulty rape accusations are a problem. However, I think any decent, logical person would agree that the much more pressing concern (that affects much more people) is the rape culture that we perpetuate, and the devastating emotional damage and stigma on rape victims that leads to 60% of rapes not being reported.
    The men’s issues that you list (e.g., higher suicide rates, larger percentage of homelessness) are very real and sad issues that we should of course be discussing and trying to find solutions for.
    However, it is completely unclear how feminism is contributing to these issues. I challenge you to actually prove the link.
    You claim “I refuse to support a movement that claims to promote gender equality but in actuality is concerned with the elevation of women at the expense of men.” This is the most ignorant statement in your whole article and I beg you to take a class or read a book or learn something about gender issues before you write further on this topic.

    • Aguy

      “I think any decent, logical person would agree that the much more
      pressing concern (that affects much more people) is the rape culture
      that we perpetuate,”

      Any decent, logical person would realize that rape culture outside of prison is a myth.

  • Katie O’Brien

    I am going to disregard the line “We can do our best to try and attain consent” as a sad misuse of words the author does not understand in the hopes that no one in the world actually believes “trying your best” to attain consent makes any subsequent action okay.

    I honestly think the person who wrote this does not understand the definition of feminism. By definition, feminism is the advocacy for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. This does not imply hating men (misandry) nor does it imply a disregard for issues faced primarily by men. Feminism does not “claim” to be rooted in equality. It is, by definition, advocating for equality.

    There are so many more issues with this viewpoint, but mostly, it just makes me sad that in 2014 at the University of Notre Dame, someone could express a view like this.

    • J

      Actions speak louder than words. Until feminists recognize how they present themselves, they will continue to get similar reactions. There is a reason that most women don’t identify as feminists, and it’s not because the movement is all about advocating equality.

      • Jenna Wilson

        It is true – extreme feminists exist who present themselves as anti-men. However, that does not make the whole movement anti-men. This is true of any group. Do you judge all Catholics after meeting one rude priest? I would hope not. Feminism obviously isn’t a religion, but as a movement, it should not be deemed as something it is not just because of a few.

        • thewatercarrier

          I think most of us have met considerably more than one rude feminist. At what point do the rude, man-hating feminists get to actually define the movement? It strikes me that you’e near, or past the tipping point.

          • Jenna Wilson

            If I come off as rude, I certainly don’t intend to and I am sorry if I do come off that way. Feminism is certainly a topic of debate, and while I advocate feminism, I accept criticism and counterexamples from others who do not hold the same view. Furthermore, I certainly hope that I do not come off as man-hating. If I have posted anything that is directly man-hating, please feel free to call me out on it. I am not perfect and I make mistakes. However, I try to learn from these mistakes. So, by all means, call me out on any man-hating comments. But please, do not judge me or my character based on my comments defending feminism. They are arguments and you are welcome to question the validity of them. All of the posts on here are some sore of argument, whether they are opinionated or not, and they should be read as such. I am not judging each user based on his comments, only trying to understand and argue their viewpoints. So again, please do not judge me as a person, but judge my arguments. Thank you.

          • thewatercarrier

            No Jena, not you. You seem very pleasant, although a trifle naive about the true motives of the broader feminist movement. A movement which generally succeeds in creating a damaging wedge between men and women and has made a mens’ rights movement necessary at a time when a combined movement working for men and women, and boys and girls would have been hugely more effective and empowering for all.

          • Jenna Wilson

            When I say that I am a feminist, I mean that I support economic, political, and social gender equality. This is the foundation of the movement and in itself does not necessarily infer extremism or man-hating. You don’t have to call it feminism if that word is entangled with negative experiences of connotations. Perhaps you are right that the word “feminism” has driven a wedge between men and women, and perhaps I am naive, but only insofar as it is naive to think that people could possibly to move past the word “feminism” to support gender equality. I do agree that a movement working for both men and women’s rights is necessary. If the definition of feminism were accepted as such, then this movement you describe is feminism.

          • thewatercarrier

            But it’s not, so it’s not.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Because you say so?

          • thewatercarrier

            Well in fairness, it’s not just me saying it. And there’s certainly no lack of evidence.

      • emily

        A good movement can be poorly represented by well-meaning people. Just because all people identifying as feminists do not represent the movement well does not mean that the movement itself is not good. Just as many people do not identify as Christian because they have encountered ‘bad’ Christians that have put them off, and Islam is tainted by a small minority of radical extremists. Feminism is no different. Try to judge the movement on what it is meant to be, not on the individuals in it.

    • Aguy

      “By definition, feminism is the advocacy for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.”

      No it isn’t. If it was, feminists would have been advocating for men for the past fifty years, instead of against them.

      Feminism is the advocacy for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes _as viewed by a feminists_, that is to say, _as viewed by a group of bigoted conspiracy theorists who believe that the whole world is out to get them and no remedy will ever be enough_. The fact that the dictionary omits the latter part is entirely the fault of the lexicographer, not feminism’s observers.

      • Anon

        Feminism in its current form is all about maintaining double standards stemming from traditionalism that benefit women whilst destroying the double standards from our civilizational past which benefit men.

        • Nathan

          Coming from a position of relative ignorance, what are some double standards that you see as being maintained?

      • visionary_23

        Feminism: redressing any negative inequalities that women face while being apathetic or actively promoting any positive inequalities that they face relative to men since the 1960’s and calling it gender equality.

        • Nathan

          Obviously the promoting of inequalities is repugnant, but being apathetic to another groups issues isn’t by any means unique to feminists or unfair. MRA groups should not be actively promoting inequalities either, but that doesn’t mean that they should be expected to devote enormous amounts of time to feminist causes either.

          • visionary_23

            Fair enough, but then feminists shouldn’t argue that people who are “for gender equality” are inherently feminists, which they do constantly. Feminists are, in practice, solely about women’s rights. They’re not about “gender equality”, as that would necessitate balancing ALL inequities facing ALL genders.

            Additionally, because of that overt neglect of men’s issues, they’re not neutral arbiters in evaluating whether OTHER groups that focus on men’s issues are legitimate or not (like they often attempt to do with the MRM).

      • Jenna Wilson

        Women haven’t been advocating for men for the past fifty years because women haven’t been able to advocate for most of those fifty years.

        • Doug Lefelhocz

          Actually they have had the ability to advocate for the past 50 years. In *every* federal election since 1964, women have made up the majority of the voters.

          • Jenna Wilson

            And who has been writing the laws and bills that they vote for? Who are the candidates that they are able to choose from to represent them?

          • visionary_23

            And who has been writing the laws and bills that they vote for?

            The people they elected. I thought initially that was a trick question, but I realized that it was simply an easy one.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Let’s see if I can say this without getting a million comments about patriarch theory… I was leading more towards the fact that there were no women in power at the time. So even if they were voting, the representation was not necessarily writing laws for their best interest.

            Disclaimer: I am NOT blaming men in power for all of women’s problems. It is a fact that women were not in power at the time. That is all.

          • Doug Lefelhocz

            Men weren’t in power at the time either. Individual men who got elected (since 1964 by an electorate which has come as more female than male at the federal level), perhaps. But men *as a class* were not in power.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I agree. Men “as a class” were not in power. But the majority of people who were in power were men. Fair?

          • Octavian

            Who’s really in power, the voter or the official they elect? Not a rhetorical question, I honestly don’t purport to have an answer. I just don’t think that it is decidedly one or the other. But is wholely possible for the person/people in power to act on behalf of groups other than the one to which they belong. Benjamen Disraeli may have been a Jew, but I guarantee he cared more about what English gentiles thought than what English Jews thought, because it was the latter who put him in power.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I would say that is a political debate that I don’t have the answer to. I obviously lean towards those who are elect, but I can’t support that with evidence. There’s probably evidence for both sides.

          • Al

            Most people who were and are in positions of political power are also right-handed. So what?

          • visionary_23

            Again, women control the electorate, and have done so for over half a century. The only people who can get elected are those that women want to get elected.

            I get what you’re saying, but you’re implying that women had very little agency in picking those “men” when they’re the ones who controlled whether those “men” were elected in the first place. Who then were re-reelected by women.

            The argument that women “were not in power” doesn’t hold water, given that.

          • Doug Lefelhocz

            “And who has been writing the laws and bills that they vote for?”

            The people they elected.

            “Who are the candidates that they are able to choose from to represent them?”

            All people can get elected. People are free to vote for whoever they think it appropriate to vote for.

          • Octavian

            Are you insinuating that powerful men have historically fought for the interests of other men? I would think conscription would be ample proof of the opposite. Jews and Christians controlled the major financial and military institutions of the Ottoman Empire; that doesn’t mean Jews and Christians by and large were privileged in the Ottoman empire, quite the opposite. If male leaders really cared more about men then women, then why do male judges so enthusiastically imprison destitute men who couldn’t pay their child support if they wanted to for months at a time and then let female child-rapists get off with community service? (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/female-teacher-who-sought-sex-with-10yearold-boy-walks-free-20141009-113hlz.html) Men and women both often empathize more with women, just for different reasons, and male leadership does not by any stretch of the imagination equate to male interests (Joe Biden being a case in point. “When… in the course of all these thousands of years has man
            ever acted in accordance with his own interests?” -Dostoevsky.

        • Aguy

          Well, that’s just a straight up lie.

          Why are you lying, Jenna? Is credibility a burden to you?

    • Doug Lefelhocz

      ” By definition, feminism is the advocacy for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.”

      Nope. Emer O’ Toole’s article more accurately indicates what feminism is quite nicely: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/09/not-a-feminist-move-on-men-women

      Feminism is advocacy for social, political, and economic equality of the sexes, COMBINED WITH a belief that women are more disadvantaged by gender inequality (or “feminism” is a movement for “women’s *liberation*” a much different notion).

      To Emer O’ Toole’s question “who do you think is more disadvantaged by gender inequality?” the author of this article clearly would answer “men”, “disadvantaged equally in different ways”, “this question makes me uncomfortable”, or “women, but I’m still more interested in talking about men”.

      Note the author didn’t talk about men dieing sooner on average, how men and boys don’t explicitly have the right to genital integrity while women and girls do, how legal parental surrender applies to women, but not to men, how domestic violence against men gets covered up, ignored, or trivialized, how Selective Service *registration* is only required and penalized also for men, and several other issues.

  • guest

    lol wow

  • Dude. Come on.

    The MRA “movement” is nice in theory, except they do a whole lot of nothing. They exist solely to antagonize and harass feminists. To quote David Futrelle, the MRA movement is “a hateful, reactionary movement driven largely by misogyny and hatred of feminism”. Being concerned with real issues that impact the lives of disadvantaged men is one thing, but when you label yourself an MRA you’re taking on a whole other complicated and polarizing identity. (Consider the difference between saying “i’m a Trekkie/Brony” and “i’m a fan of Star Trek/MLP”) One could argue that the main “activism” of MRAs consists of cyberbullying and harassing feminist writers and figures to the point where they fear for their safety and have to move or even contact the FBI (take Anita Sarkeesian for example). If you don’t want to be lumped into this group, don’t label yourself an MRA.

    A recent survey on Reddit’s /mensrights subgroup showed that an overwhelming proportion of active MRAs are white, 17-20 year-old men. The only political issue that a majority of them was passionate about was marijuana legalization (94% in favor). This was a higher priority than the minimum wage, socialized health care, same-sex marriage, or gun control. This demographic reveals itself in what the “movement” prioritizes. Where are the MRA activists defending the rights and dignity of LGBTQ+ men? Male rape victims (who are largely raped by other men)? Where are the victim support groups or advocated for paternal leave? Groups of MRAs working to end male violence? Within feminism there is a strong awareness of and push against “white feminism” and a very conscious effort by amazing activists to confront challenging and intersectional histories and issues. The so-called Men’s Rights Movement could benefit from doing the same.

    Within feminism there is plenty of space and discussion of many issues MRAs are passionate about. I invite you to look into the writings and speeches by Jackson Katz, Michael Flood, Michael Messner, and Michael Kimmel. Their feminism centers very much on male issues and may surprise you.

    It’s amazing how a generally privileged person can look at the violation of so many groups’ rights and dignity, say “but what about ME?”, and actively push against those trying to lift up oppressed men and women. Please don’t scapegoat women and burn straw feminists to distract from the roots of so many of mens’ problems: white-supremacist patriarchy. Notre Dame is a relatively diverse university full of opportunities to learn about how complicated and intersectional forms of oppression can be. Everyone, MRAs and feminists, can benefit from learning more about the groups they are a part of and those they are not. I hope you reach out academically and explore a field you may not be comfortable in.

    • ChaoticWin

      Quoting David Futrelle as a credible critic of the MRM is like quoting Sam Harris as a credible critic of Islam. Sourcing MRA demographics based on reddit/subreddits is like sourcing Muslim demographics based on the population of Riyadh.

    • Ohone

      It doesn’t really matter what Futrelle says, hes been exposed as a liar many times.

    • ManUpManDown

      “Dude. Come On,” your post is a beautiful example of the type of ironically condescending obliviousness that arises when one viewpoint has a monopoly over a conversation for such a long period of time. The result is a mixture of (1) academically trendy conceptualisms, framed as the “common sense” of the sophisticated an intellectually dexterous, but are really just substitutes for critical thought shot from the hip with the confidence of one who has completed all the necessary cool-aid coursework; (2) lies; and (3) a Sarah Palin-esque reckless ignorance.

      At best, you know nothing about the MRM, and at worst, you cynically pull out all the cheap and misleading “sources” created for your very invocation. The Reddit survey? Tell you what. You go to that very same sub-reddit and see how many threads you can find, in a community of 100,000, that discuss the importance of pot legalization. After all, if the results of the survey are correct, you should find a lot, no? But you won’t. Because, as has been discussed repeatedly, that was a corrupted survey, brigaded in a short period of time to create results inconsistent with prior similar surveys that reflected results much more consistent with what MRAs post about daily.

      And the last paragraph. Wow. It’s amazing how inclined privileged feminists are to lecture
      others very arguably less privileged about their privilege, as if you “get it,” as if you’ve seen the rough and tumble and you’re here to sharpen a knife with a hard stone. Wow, how sobering your words are! I’m sure the author is humbled.

      Or perhaps not. Perhaps he does not accept your premises, as pre-approved as they may be by those who currently set the establishment intellectual trends. And that,
      sir/madam, is what MRAs are largely preoccupied with currently: painting our own descriptive theory of how the world works on a clean slate, rather than using the pre-approved feminist paint-by-number a la the approaches of your good-boys like Michael Kimmel.

      The upshot is this. Feminism says one thing but does another. Beyond classroom assertions and token bone-throwing, feminism has demonstrated very little for concern for men AS MEN. Not gay men, Black men, trans men, paraplegic men with missing eyebrows . . . just men. Not concern for men because helping men is necessary to help women (HeforShe, etc.). Just concern for men as men. For men. Why is this? Two reasons: (1) a fundamental lack of compassion for men and a lack of genuine interest in their experiences; and (2) the generation of sophisticated intellectual constructs that make (1) appear sensible. The result is a post like yours.

      • Hau5

        Boom. Best comment on this thread, bar none.

    • marcetienne

      Nonsense. The MRM movement is growing all over the world. In Costa Rica both men and women marched for men’s rights, like they did in Mexico. http://www.ticotimes.net/2014/06/05/costa-rican-men-will-march-to-demand-gender-equality-before-the-law

      And the President of Costa Rica just agreed to create a commission on men’s rights. Finally. http://www.ticotimes.net/2014/10/06/costa-rican-president-to-establish-commission-to-study-mens-rights-issues-adviser-says

      The National Coalition For Men has worked with lots of LGBT advocates especially in Los Angeles where we have finally created an official task force on male victims of domestic violence. We first had to sue the state of California to overturn the unconstitutional law that excluded male victims and their kids from state funded services. Woods v. Horton. That law was written by feminist groups, not the patriarcy.
      You people who stereotype the MRM have no clue what you’re talking about. You have not hung out with and worked with MRAs all over the world. You just read your biased news stories and feminist myths about the MRA movement and you spread the same lies just to try to prevent a balanced dialogue on gender.

    • visionary_23

      Could this be a more hackneyed feminist post? Might want to avoid using people like David Futrelle as your pole-bearers for “men’s rights”.

      It must suck to lose control of the gender issue space, eh?

    • thewatercarrier

      “Male rape victims (who are largely raped by other men” – Actually no. But then I think you know you were wrong when you made it up.

      http://time.com/37337/nearly-half-of-young-men-say-theyve-had-unwanted-sex/

    • Doug Lefelhocz

      “Male rape victims (who are largely raped by other men)?”

      Not true. Both the 2010 NISVS and the 2011 NISVS found that over 75% of the male “made to penetrate” victims had a female perpetrator. http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape/

      “A recent survey on Reddit’s /mensrights subgroup showed that an
      overwhelming proportion of active MRAs are white, 17-20 year-old men.”

      And what survey was that? And did they consider groups like A Voice for Men and the National Coalition for Men also?

      “Where are the MRA activists defending the rights and dignity of LGBTQ+ men?”

      The National Coalition for Men has sued the Selective Service System. The Selective Service System affects *all* men.

      “Groups of MRAs working to end male violence?”

      There is no such thing as male violence. Males do commit violence, as do females. But, violence does not have a gender.

      “I invite you to look into the writings and speeches by Jackson Katz, Michael Flood, Michael Messner, and *Michael Kimmel*.”

      I have looked into the writings of Michael Kimmel. He doesn’t understand the Men’s Human Rights Movement… http://www.amazon.com/review/R3JM243G7BO6SI/ref=cm_cr_quotes_dprb_0?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1568586965&nodeID=283155&store=books

      I can find the implied sources to that link if you want them.

      • visionary_23

        Well said, Doug.

  • Tyler

    The fact the Observer would ever let such non-sense make it into print is saddening. The commentary on consent and rape is deplorable. Rape is not an epidemic men face. It is a crime against another human person that should be discussed with care, not with some bigoted remarks about how you have to keep your pants zipped because the girl you brought back drank a little too much and made the mistake of leaving the party with you.

    • Nathan

      Wouldn’t be much of a conversation if both sides weren’t printed. Contrasting perspectives are useful when forming opinions

    • Greg

      You’re right, we should ignore opinions that significant members of our community hold. And many of those members are women, by the way.

    • Jack

      Men also make bad decisions when they’re drunk and say yes to things they otherwise wouldn’t. If they woke up the next morning with regrets and called it rape they’d be laughed right out of the police station.

      • Nathan

        Based on assumption or experience?

        • Factory

          You know any women that have been charged with rape?

          • Nathan

            Personally? No (though I don’t know any men either).
            Additionally, is that a question of police not taking it seriously, or of men not reporting it for FEAR of not being taken seriously?

          • Bluedrgn

            Both.

          • Factory

            Right. Heads I win, tails you lose. This is the SAW version of compassion.

          • Nathan

            Can you actually show me ANY evidence of men that have attempted to report rapes and been laughed out of the system, or are we just going to be working under the assumption that it would happen? Because that seems to be begging the question a little (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/begging-the-question/)

          • Factory

            You say that like some level, ANY level, of evidence would convince you. Which is funny, sure…but it doesn’t mean I’m wasting my time running down links. I have a decade of experience with feminists like you.

            Thankfully, the people reading this have ample evidence of your behavior and beliefs. If they, like me, find them totalitarian and repugnant….well, then my job is done.

          • Nathan

            As a matter of fact, some level of evidence would be nice. I actually think that this would make for an interesting social experiment. Have confederates go to police stations with mock rape reports and see if men are in fact turned away. Would certainly be interesting, and the findings could potentially be incredibly valuable to MRA movements when attempting to make their case.

            Thank goodness they do, though I think you’re being a bit myopic if from them you’ve concluded that I’m a feminist (I’m not) and a totalitarian one at that.

          • gwallan

            I’ve met several survivors through Mike Lew(look him up) events in Australia who said they have been laughed at or called liars by either police or rape crisis services. I’m not sure what would satisfy you as “evidence”. I do believe what they told me.

            Support groups in the UK have reported that about 90% of the victims – male and female – of female perpetrators were disbelieved when they first tried to report to responsible entities. I reckon it’s a safe bet that at least some of those victims were dismissed mockingly.

          • Nathan

            Thank you. This is the sort of stuff that I was looking for 🙂

        • Doug Lefelhocz

          “made to penetrate” got classified as something other than rape by both the 2010 NISVS and the 2011 NISVS.. studies done by people at the Center for Disease Control. http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape/

          • Nathan

            Now THAT is interesting. Really makes me want to see what kind of results you would get if you went to the police as a guy claiming you were raped by a woman. Thanks for the info

          • visionary_23

            Nathan, you didn’t know the above?

            Our problem is that feminists have, over the past 20 years, expanded the definition of rape to include (not in order): marital rape, non forcible rape, rape by any pene trative object, non vag inal rape, statutory rape, rape without actively saying “no”, rape due to intoxication, and non-consensual s e x of any kind that involves pene tration as rape.

            Yet they appear to have no compunction with allowing females to force men to pene trate them as being classified as “other s ex ual assault”. Which, coincidentally of course, doesn’t name the vast majority of female rapists of men as “rapists”. Which then promotes the idea that “99% of all rapists are men”, stated by feminists on mainstream media sources (Jill Filipovic on Al Jazeera comes to mind). Despite literally shifting the focus of government in education ON rape in college institutions.

            Would you argue that specific oversight as simply coincidence?

            Forgive us if we can’t take the feminist establishment as being neutral arbiters in dealing with men’s rights.

          • Nathan

            No, I legitimately wasn’t aware. That is FASCINATING. I want to do more research now on the numbers behind this and maybe look into why this strange categorization isn’t more commonly known (though I may be in the minority not having heard of it before).

          • gwallan

            Suggest checking out the blog Feminist Critics which has numerous articles relating to this very matter. Also the blogger Tamen has done significant analysis of the definitions used in CDC work and in quite a few other settings. He was one of the folk who was instrumental in getting the FBI to recently alter the definitions they apply.

          • Nathan

            Thanks, definitely will

          • visionary_23

            No, you’re certainly not in the minority — from our standpoint, feminists basically never speak about that bias in the definition of rape (aside from a hannah rosin article in slate 4 years after both the CDC publication AND the constant criticism from MRA websites). And, from our standpoint, it makes complete sense WHY they wouldn’t want to correct that bias — it makes women perpetrators and men victims of a crime which they’re invested in maintaining a “male perpetrator, female victim” paradigm.

            I was just wondering because you appear to be interested in these sorts of issues and you’ve asserted you’re not a feminist. The biased rape definition (which again, leads to the conclusion that a super super super majority of rapists are men, when nothing could be further from the truth) is a hallmark of our issues with modern day feminism — among others, of course.

            Indeed, even those feminists who finally DO acknowledge that, under our expanded definitions of rape, a massive amount of men are being raped by women start even arguing that male victims of rape from women isn’t “as bad” as the reverse (see David Futrelle — a feminist man quoted by some of the feminist commenters in this very thread as being, laughably, “neutral” in his treatment of men’s issues).

          • Nathan

            I actually agree with bits and pieces of both movements, but I hate the hardliners at each end too much identify with either one

          • visionary_23

            Do you actually believe there’s an equivalence between feminism and the MRM in terms of current cultural, economic, political, and social power?

          • Nathan

            Nah, I barely hear about the MRM. At the same time though, the fact that the most articulate proponents of the movement that I’ve encountered have been in this comment section hasn’t exactly given me the best impression of the movement.

          • visionary_23

            Nah, I barely hear about the MRM.

            Precisely. The venue for us to even be GIVEN a voice is controlled by media sources that are sympathetic to feminists. As an aside, could it be that the fact that you personally haven’t found articulate proponents of the movement might be because you’re inherently conditioned to find dissenting viewpoints to feminist thought unseemly?

            And, to be fair, if you’re going to be critical of the MRM (which you “barely hear about”), where are your absurdly loud critiques of feminist suppression of any dissenting or non-promoting view via the media and other sources on other pages? How about on the feminist article that preceded this one? You see our point. Only WE are the ones who critique feminism, and the job of uncovering feminist hypocrisy appears to fall to us.

            It seems that even putative self-claimed “neutral arbiters” are loathe to criticize feminism with the same verve as they do us. Fair enough, but that’s infuriating. Hence, don’t expect us to listen.

            As an aside, the MRM is indeed starting to gain quite a bit of traction — and even influencing articles on liberal websites. The Hope Solo DV case was literally only being brought up on MRA websites prior to it being picked up in the Ray Rice saga. I highly doubt that would have occurred without that drum banging.

      • Jenna Wilson

        If someone has problems making serious decisions while intoxicated to the point where they constantly regret those decisions the next day, it is always possible to drink less, or just not drink at all.

        • Observer

          The hypocrisy is strong in you.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Care to explain?

        • Jack

          Yes and that is also possible for women. But when men make a bad decision, they chalk it up to experience. Women, supported by ill thought out laws, call it rape.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I never used gender in my comment and it was not gender-specific. I agree that it is also possible for women. But I do not think it is fair to generalize the claim that all women who make bad decisions chalk it up to rape. I won’t deny that it happens, but it should not be assumed that women will necessarily do such.

    • Factory

      When including ‘made to penetrate’ in the stats (as they should be), men and women are sexually assaulted in nearly identical proportion. Actually, men are assaulted more, but why quibble.
      The only reason women are ‘raped’ more, is because female on male rape has been classified as ‘made to penetrate’ instead. More statistical manipulation and lies from the feminist camp….colour me surprised.

      • curious

        i’m sorry, but can you provide any legitimate research or published studies to back up this claim? genuinely curious since you seem to have no actual evidence.

    • visionary_23

      God, it must suck to see someone advocating that men’s rights are also human rights, huh?

  • Jack

    The gender spectrum does not exist. It’s a made up thing that actually harms real men and women by perpetuating societal stereotypes of what gender is. Gender is entirely to do with biology, if you have an X chromosome you are a man, no matter how you like to dress, spend your time or who you want to marry. By defining some of these people as women or somewhere in the middle we actually harm them.

    • Cast

      What, you don’t adore the Emperor’s new clothes? You just might be an enemy of society.

    • Chris

      To be fair, there are cases of hermaphrodism (XXY, etc.) which constitute not exactly a spectrum, but at least a few genetic exceptions. I take your point though about the dissociation of gender from biology.

    • Oh wow

      Jack, are you aware of intersex people? Have you done any research on transgender issues? This comment is cisnormative (google it).

      • Jack

        I am aware some people perceive themselves to be “intersex” and that a tiny tiny minority of those people are actually biologically hermaphroditic. Once again, gender is biological. By forcing men to perceive themselves as female or intergender to rationalize certain behaviors or preferences we actually harm society as a whole.

    • Bluedrgn

      FYI,

      EVERYONE has an X chromosome. Women have 2, men have an X and a Y.

  • Nate Jones

    Feminism has proven overwhelmingly that at best it’s not interested in the welfare of men, and at worst is a direct threat to their well-being. Feminists are constantly telling us to let them handle problems men face while systematically vilifying men and fighting to strip them of their rights, all the while inflaming gender conflict.

    Well guess what feminists, you dropped the ball. We can’t count on you to look out for the welfare of men, so we need to look out for our own welfare. Part of that involves disproving feminism’s false narrative and exposing your lies and bigotry.

    • Nathan

      “Feminists are constantly telling us to let them handle problems men face while systematically vilifying men and fighting to strip them of their rights, all the while inflaming gender conflict.”
      And you’ve got some folks on the other side who generalize all feminists as being bigoted monsters. All movements will have purist/hardline elements. The trick is for the reasonable people on both sides to reign them in and focus on finding common ground.

      • Nate Jones

        The problem is that when a feminist goes off the deep end other feminists don’t call her out on her behavior. At best you get a “not all feminists are like that” and her actions are swept under the rug. That’s why feminism has become a festering sore on society that’s not even good for the women it claims to represent, and certainly not for men.

        • Nathan

          1.) Are you saying it’s any different for the other side. Do people who lump all feminists together generally get called out?
          2.) Getting their actions swept under the rug is what you want. Ideally you want constructive elements to dominate the spotlight, not hardline elements. It’s like the WBC. Sure it’s great to see on the news about them getting drowned out by counterprotests, but I’d rather not see them at all if I can avoid it.

          3.) Probably the same reason that 1 in 5 men (or probably fewer) would say they identify with the MRM. Not everyone likes to be associated with political movements, even when those movements benefit them. That doesn’t affect their legitimacy or results.

          • Nate Jones

            When you claim to be part of an organization, you have to accept that you’re going to be judged based on the actions of that organization. That makes it all the more important for an organization to police itself. I’ve seen people posting on the forums for Men’s Rights Advocates who’ve been asked to leave and their position refuted because they were saying genuinely hateful and bigoted things the MRM didn’t want associated with it.

            And yet whenever a feminist says something unsupportable other prominent feminists don’t jump in and say “We don’t agree with this position and we don’t accept this person as one of us.” At best we get a piddling “Not all feminists are like that” without even refuting the position or disavowing that person’s place in the movement.

            So yes, I’d say there’s a big difference. It’s fair to judge feminism on what its radical elements say because that’s the loudest message feminism sends and no other feminists are stepping in raise dissent.

            That said, even though the MRM speaks against feminism as a whole, there are individual feminists I’ve heard quoted by MRAs such as Camille Paglia.

          • Nathan

            Feminism isn’t a single organization though.

            Additionally wasn’t the thing that spurred this entire piece Emma Watson’s speech to the UN? Would you say she represents this radical element?

          • thewatercarrier

            Her speech was so different to the usual feminist talking points that it stood out as being almost unique. The exception that proved the rule. And to top it off it turned out that the campaign was focused solely on helping women.
            I can’t help thinking that if I was a western woman or girl I might find it considerably more empowering to be told that while men and boys were going to help me, that they needed my help too. But that’s just me.

          • Jenna Wilson

            So do you judge all Muslims because of incidents of extremism such as suicide bombings? I have Muslim friends who are perfectly normal people. Likewise, I think you might meet some perfectly normal, non-extreme feminists if you took the time to check your prejudice.

          • Nate Jones

            Does the rest of the Muslim world speak against extremists such as suicide bombers? If so then they’re ostracizing those who paint them with a bad image by association.

            Which, as I’ve said repeatedly, feminism doesn’t do. Feminism tolerates the most extreme, bigoted, and hateful elements within their ranks, never speaking against them or distancing themselves no matter what is said or done.

            Prejudice involves judging something before you know anything about it. Believe me, I know quite a bit about feminism, and I base my judgments on solid observation of their behavior, not their vaunted “dictionary definition”.

          • Jenna Wilson

            And yet my Muslim friends get stopped every time they have to go through airport security…

            And I would like to see where feminism endorses these “most extreme, bigoted, and hateful” people. The definition of toleration is, “allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.” (New Oxford American Dictionary) So toleration actually infers a disagreement. Toleration from feminism does not imply that all feminists have the same beliefs. I do not have the same religious beliefs as my Muslim friends. I am tolerant towards their beliefs, but I still do not share in those beliefs. Likewise, feminism could tolerate extreme feminist views without sharing in them and actually disagreeing with them.

            Actually, prejudice is “preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.” (New American Oxford Dictionary) You might think you know about feminism, but unless you know about each individual feminist, you are are prejudging all feminists.

            Please, enlighten me on your observations of feminist behavior.

          • Octavian

            So generalizations are never warranted? Doesn’t that cut both ways? You can’t say feminism isn’t bigotes either, because then you would be speaking for all feminists, and of course in so far as some are bigots, to claim that would therefore be erroneous, right?

            And considering the number of prominent feminists who openly hate or disdain men (Robin Morgan, Hannah Rosin, Maureen Dowd, Catherine Mackinnon) and that numerous mainstream feminist organizations that actively opposed justly demanded rights for men (NOW opposing equality in family court, the Elizabeth Fry Societies supporting almost the complete abolition of punitive justice for women who commit violent crimes against men), it’s not exactly far-fetched to say that bigotry is a common enough thread even in ‘mainstream’ feminism, not some radical fringe.

            And in my experience, even the avowedly non-bigoted feminists, without fail, once among a group of feminist friends engaging in male-bashing or speculating that some socially awkward guy is probably a rapist because of his awkward ‘creepy’ personality, either join in or at best are silent on the matter. Hardly inspires me to want to stand up to misogyny. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a woman call out another woman for making a bigoted remark about men. Silence is the best one can hope for. So even if there is some silent majority of good feminists, the way I see a silent 99% is as good as 1%.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I certainly am not speaking for all of feminism. I am a feminist, and I choose to express my feminist ideals. This does not mean that all other feminists must agree with everything I say. Generalizations have a place and time. Science makes generalized claims all the time. But generalization should not provide prejudice against others. Are there bigoted feminists? Yes. Are all feminists bigots? No. Have you ever experienced this type of man bashing? Honest question. As far as I am aware, I have never engaged in “male-bashing.”

          • V8beetle

            When the NOW, head of the feminist movement opposes shared parenting, as do an unquantifiable amount of women that can be demonstrated all over social media by women who think kids are solely their property, yes, you condemn the whole damn thing until people get a reality check.

            Check Divorce Corp’s facebook page for the article regarding shared parenting in North Dakota. I’ve never see more sexist crap , more blatant lies, denial, delusional crap in my life. Even when confronted with the fact that women abusers outnumber males almost 2:1 in child maltreatment reports, the women opposed to shared parenting cling to their delusions.

            The group in North Dakota pushing for shared parenting are actually women, but the “feminists” are opposed to it clearly because they know it will likely benefit men also. NOW has painted broadly, men who seek custody, as abusers, which can be documented. So the lies and propaganda need to stop.

          • Jenna Wilson

            Can you provide a source or example that shows that women “think kids are solely their property”? A child is not property of either parent. I child is a human being and the objectification of children as “property” can lead to problems of child abuse and emotional neglect. And what claims exactly demonstrate that feminists oppose shared custody “clearly because they know it will likely benefit men also”? It seems that the evidence I have read is based on the statuses of the children in such cases, so I would like to see some of this anti-men evidence. In my opinion, I think it is sad that custody has become a battle between mother and father, rather than a decision that supports the best interest of the child. Perhaps the system in place never truly served the child’s best interest, but it seems like the child’s welfare should be emphasized, rather than who the child’s “owner” is.

          • V8beetle

            I pointed you to Divorce Corp’s facebook page where such behavior is contemptuously demonstrated: https://www.facebook.com/divorce.corp

            Look under the post posted on the 6th by a poster named Kelsey Victoria McAllister, in which she specifically states, “Did Nature Really Intend for Children To Be Removed From Mothers and Placed with Men or is it just a Socially Imposed Concept?” Look how many other women are also opposed to shared parenting.

            As for Now’s opposition, one need look no further than:http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html

            Here’s the article linked from Divorce corp showing who is pushing for shared parenting and who opposes it:

            http://thefederalist.com/2014/10/06/what-new-studies-say-is-best-for-children-of-fractured-homes/

            See also this, start at 11:30 into the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXtApkkdgT0&list=UUcdQla_9PbQb4-FKFxJN2ag&t=11m30s

          • Jenna Wilson

            Thank you for all of this information! This particular topic is one that I am well versed on and it is very interesting. Initially after reading this, although I should dig into more research, I see the issue with NOW’s stance. If it is true that they are focusing on not closing women’s doors rather than allowing equal opportunities for both mothers and fathers, then I would support the equal opportunities over NOW’s stance. I like to think that I also am anti-BS and pro-honesty, which is why I asked for more information. If someone can successfully argue their case, then I respect that opinion and might even question my own in the process. Not everyone does this successfully, however.

          • V8beetle

            You’re welcome, and there’s so much more. NOW, as well as the leadership council continue to peddle the same lies based on debunked “quasi-research” from the 1989 Massachusetts court to be found here:

            http://amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm

            Which was then thoroughly refuted here starting on page 908:

            http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/downloads/254/mcneely.pdf

            I don’t wish to offend anyone, but it invariably happens when disputing reality, or narratives set forth by someone or groups of people pushing a political agenda. There’s 30 plus years of research disavowed regarding gender symmetry and domestic violence. There’s well over 200 peer reviewed scholarly articles, such as this one:

            http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Hines-Brown-and-Dunning-2007-DAHM.pdf

            The above speaks directly to feminists denying male victims. There’s so many pieces from Dr. Murray Straus, Dr. Richard Gelles, Dr. Don Dutton, Dr. Daniel Whitaker et.al Whitaker, who had a real nice recent study showing women initiated one sided violence in his huge sample a little over 70% of the time.

            If you google gender symmetry domestic violence, you too can peruse the literature. As for the validity of rape statistics, and why they’re invalid. For the majority of the last 200 years, the legal and academic definitions have intentionally excluded women as perpetrators, and men as victims. As far back as 1840, early on in the women’s suffrage movement, women had a hand in shaping such laws, and definitions. If you’ll note the 2010 CDC report here: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

            You’ll see still that males made to penetrate, or coerced aren’t considered raped. Also, for a frame of reference to the predominant definition the last 200 years see: https://prisonerofthesystem.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/koss-1993-detecting-the-scope-of-rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods.pdf

            Above, page 199 defines the terms, and the bottom of page 206, top of page 207. This is from 1993, yet, as you can see from the 2010 cdc report, it’s as if nothing much has changed, and male victims of female perpetrators are made invisible, and likewise for female aggressor.

            There’s so much I could figuratively bury you in links of stuff to read. Here’s a few things of interest though:

            http://hr.umich.edu/stopabuse/resources/definitions.html

            http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/19448/

            http://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2io497/did_i_rape_my_first_ever_boyfriend/

            There’s just too much. Enjoy the read, feel free to shout back if you need to.

  • Chris

    “Feminism is not interested in the problems men face in today’s society, and thus I refuse to support a movement that claims to promote gender equality but in actuality is concerned with the elevation of women at the expense of men.” At the expense of men? D’Emic is asking for the impossible (and the undesireable). We cannot elevate one gender without removing the other from the throne, the seat of power. Feminism cannot elevate women by retain the status men, and to critique for not doing this is not only to misunderstand its aim but also ask it to do the impossible.
    Also, is he trying to defend alleged rapists as victims of the system?
    Also! his emphasis on male under-preformance (“immense troubles our young boys and men face”) only exacerbates the problem of gender inequality: if men are so under-valued and socially challenged, why is it that women do not occupy more influential roles in society and face less pay for equal work and training?

    • thewatercarrier

      Gender pay gap explained. The truth is shocking!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

    • Nathan

      “We cannot elevate one gender without removing the other from the throne, the seat of power. Feminism cannot elevate women by retain the status men, and to critique for not doing this is not only to misunderstand its aim but also ask it to do the impossible.”

      This I actually disagree with. Why does one gender need to lose anything for another gender to gain. I mean relative advantages being lost are one thing, but there’s no real reason that absolute advantages should ever be lost.

  • FYI

    The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks several popular mens rights websites for their misogyny. (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites)

    While the principles of the many of the men involved are generally positive, as I’m sure Matthew’s are, many MRAs get swept up in rampant and violent misogyny. They are pretty clearly more “Anti-Woman” than “Pro-Man”. It is not disputed that family court is complicated, people can be prejudiced against men, and that men are often victims of rape/violence. These things are not even disputed in the feminist sphere, and dialogue about them is generally welcome. However, when the main methods and words of the group you’re labeling yourself a part of is classified as bigotry and hatred by the SPLC, maybe you should reconsider your alignment with them.

    Also:
    http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/the-stream/articles/2014/6/25/special-the-splcmensrightsactivistsandthefirstamendment.html

    • thewatercarrier

      FYI, I think it’s safe to say that where men put their heads above the parapet to raise their issues there will be feminists there to label them a hate group. I’m afraid feminist don’t trust men to discuss their issues amongst themselves without the guiding hand of feminism being involved. And they talk about patriarchy 🙂

      • wat

        Well that’s a completely ignorant, extreme, and unfounded thing to say.

        • thewatercarrier

          You almost said “hateful”, didn’t you 😉

          • wat

            What on earth is your point….stop being a creep. I wonder what your mother/sister/girlfriend would think if they saw the stuff you’re posting on here about women and feminism.

          • thewatercarrier

            What??? Neither my mother, sisters or girlfriend are feminists. I love them all, respect women (& men) and value gender equality. What weird conflagration is taking place in your head?

          • wat

            So you don’t support feminism, aka don’t support eradicating inequalities that affect them as women. Shows how much you respect them and value their gender equality with you. I feel bad for them if they’ve been sucked into your men’s rights activism. Must be nice to have them fight inequalities you face while you don’t do anything in return for the inequalities they face.

          • thewatercarrier

            I don’t support it, and they have too much belief in their own agency to support it. I could explain to my girlfriend that I appear to have completely misunderstood feminism, but despite being smaller than me, she knows where I’m ticklish so I won’t bother. Endearingly enough she cares as much about my problems and worries as I do about hers. How mad is that!!

          • thewatercarrier

            “Must be nice to have them fight inequalities you face while you don’t do anything in return for the inequalities they face.” – Doesn’t that exactly describe the #HeForShe campaign?

          • wat

            There is literally nothing stopping you from supporting #HeForShe AND the MRM. except your own sexism. So much selfish ignorance from you. I hope you don’t go to ND because you embarrass our university.

          • visionary_23

            Sure there is — perhaps he only dedicates himself to issues that affect the most suffering members of society (for which PLENTY of data indicates it’s men). Or perhaps he only dedicates himself to issues in which ALL genders are assisted, instead of implicitly men helping women.

            Again, this isn’t hard. And there’s nothing stopping feminists from embracing men’s rights as part of their agenda for “gender equality”. Yet they haven’t done so for over half a century. How ignorant and embarrassing indeed.

          • thewatercarrier

            Jeez wat, where’s all this coming from? As a feminist you advocate for women and not for men so how can you get all high and mighty about equality. And I do genuinely believe in gender equality. I don’t think we’re going to have a meeting of mind on this.

          • wat

            Feminism is the movement that supports women’s rights and fights inequality against women. Feminists are people who support feminism. “Feminist” is ONE of MANY labels you can use to describe a person. If you are a men’s rights activist, does that mean that you’re also racist because you support a movement that does nothing to combat systemic racism? NOPE. You can be pro-racial equality and pro-gender equality. You can participate in feminism AND men’s rights.

            You’re working on the idea that because feminiSM supports women, a feminiST doesn’t support men, which is logically invalid.

          • Nathan

            “If you are a men’s rights activist, does that mean that you’re also racist because you support a movement that does nothing to combat systemic racism? NOPE.” – Wat
            “So you don’t support feminism, aka don’t support eradicating inequalities that affect them as women. Shows how much you respect them and value their gender equality with you.” – Wat

            Smells like a double standard :

          • wat

            Also, one of your main criticisms of feminism is that it ignores men’s rights. Yet the MRM does nothing to support women’s rights. If you’re going to argue that we should abolish feminism on those grounds, we should do away with MRM as well. It’s both or neither.

          • thewatercarrier

            I agree completely!!! Get rid of both. Let work together for each other.

          • Nathan

            Come on, you’re smarter than that. Just because I don’t consider myself an environmentalist doesn’t mean I don’t support protecting the environment, pick up my trash, recycle, save electricity, etc. Sometimes movements have stigma attached to them due to their more hardline members (see both the MRM and feminism). You don’t need to identify with the group to support its nominal cause.

          • Bram

            Dear oh dear. That’s some very very vewy vewy vewy old shaming language. Try again, dear.

        • V8beetle

          Perhaps you should then look up how feminists targeted men’s rights conferences not only in Detroit, but there’s a video of screaming women interrupting a men’s group on youtube. But no, there’s no feminist imposition. You’re in clinical denial.

          • wat

            Wow, that handful of extremists surely represents the 3.5 billion women on the planet. While we’re at it, let’s abandon Christianity because the Westboro Baptist Church exists.

          • V8beetle

            So you’d deny then that NOW, the head of the feminist movement in conjunction with the leadership council are propagating lies with regard to child custody stemming from a 1989 Massachusetts Court review? Would you like the proof? Would you also like the proof of how they’ve covered up male victims of DV and Rape when the perpetrator is a female? Or are you content to stay woefully uninformed and blinded by feminist dogma?

  • balance

    I’m all for improving women’s rights, but I 120% agree with just about everything you say here…Gender equality is just that – not one over the other. We can’t forget some of these things mentioned.

    • Nathan

      Interesting that you mention this, because I got the impression he was taking a far more “us vs them” tract than I really could agree with. I definitely agree he brought up some great points about struggles that men face, but the implication that he can’t support feminism because it doesn’t focus on those is perplexing to me. If you want to devote your time and energy to a different movement for men’s rights, that’s one thing. But that doesn’t make feminism a less worthy cause (even if it’s supporters are sometimes a bit hardline for my tastes)

  • Pizza party

    This is absurd. Women’s rights and men’s right aren’t “one or the other”. You can be pro-women AND pro-men. The idea that being a feminist means you’re against men’s rights is ridiculous. Does the fact that I like pepperoni pizza mean that I’m anti-mushroom pizza? Do I subjugate mushroom pizza when I make a pepperoni pizza? Is pepperoni pizza wrong and unfair if there are no mushrooms on it? I just want my two whole pizzas.

    • thewatercarrier

      Ye, but feminism only does pepperoni pizza. They consider mushrooms to be a fungus. Go figure.

      • Nathan

        But mushrooms ARE a fungus…

        • thewatercarrier

          If you were a feminist you could use fungus and masculine interchangeably in that metaphor, which has now gotten oddly laboured.

          • Nathan

            That doesn’t make any sense though. Mushrooms ARE fungus. So if that analogy is accurate, then you’re saying that feminists describe men or masculinity in a way that is ACCURATE. I think I’m really misunderstanding you

          • thewatercarrier

            Well we agree on that at least 😉

  • Alumna06

    Ah the Observer. Mouthpiece for Rich Midwestern Kids Who Have Experienced Nothing, but They Read that One Thing that One Time.

    I don’t mean to attack the character of the author of this well-informed and impeccably argued dissertation on how hard it is to not rape women, but I kindly invite whoever wrote this to come over to Saint Mary’s College to get some perspective. Or just pay attention in ANY history class. Or stop acting like an entitled prig and understand that we’re all trying to work towards the same goal and that maybe his worldview is limited.

    The term “feminist” is problematic because it separates women from men and thus it can pit us against each other. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I say it, honestly. Get past the nomenclature. You have literally every societal upper hand going for you and you continue to complain that men are downtrodden? Do you understand how tone deaf that is?

    Here’s the thing. You’re at Notre Dame, which means that you’re probably relatively well-adjusted and you’re definitely well-educated. You are in a perfect position to be a positive advocate for equality. And I have to say, I think you let all of us down. And I really hope that future employers don’t come across this because if I were your hiring manager, I’d throw your resume in the trash. Pro tip: women hire people, too, so watch what you say about them on the internet.

    No sources to site. I just think you’re very misinformed and you come off as a huge tool.

    • Anon

      This is pretty sad to read. Largely inaccurate portrayal of the what the author actually said and you victimize the author without actually raising any points.

      • Alumna06

        Anon, Mr. D’Emic just wrote an entire article describing all the ways in which he is a victim. I don’t need to victimize him.

        • Octavian

          As opposed to western white women with more money than God (ahem, Emma Watson) getting to go to the UN to ask what the predominately poor, uneducated working class male population of the world can do to make her life easier? Talk about tone deaf.

    • thewatercarrier

      And this you consider a contribution to the discussion? That he should stay quiet about his concerns because some feminist HR exec will refuse to hire him. Were he advocating for feminism (or perhaps there are no privileged white feminist in Notre Dame) your comment would be disgusting, and it’s just as disgusting in this context. Congratulations, on a thread contrasting so many emotive comments yours stansd or as the most distasteful.

      • Alumna06

        Yes, pointing out that discretion is needed when posting things on the internet is a contribution to this discussion. The world can see how this man feels for better or for worse. And it can affect his future career. These are all facts. And pointing out my disappointment in the missed opportunity this post could have fostered is a legitimate complaint made multiple times on this thread. This entire premise is distasteful. We shouldn’t be pointing fingers.

        • visionary_23

          You have literally every societal upper hand going for you and you continue to complain that men are downtrodden? Do you understand how tone deaf that is?

          Why not prove that unfounded bit of speculation that appears to underlie much of the bile you’ve spewed? It’s entirely distasteful that you feel fine to argue that sort of hyperbole when average men in this country suffer from quite a bit relative to women. And wholly ironic that you’d be accusing anyone else of writing something “tone deaf”.

    • Anon

      This post wasn’t about women, nor did it direct any hate toward them. It was specifically about men’s rights and struggles. It’s quite astounding an ND alumnus doesn’t even have basic reading comprehension skills.

      • Anonymous

        She probably went to st Mary’s..

    • Nathan

      You need both sides to have a debate. If the author is wrong, then hopefully he’s educated by reading the comments. If he’s right, we can all learn something from that too. If (as I suspect) he’s both right and wrong to some degree, then you can have a good debate over that, and everyone wins a little.

  • v

    Satire??

  • Barf

    Good luck getting hired with your name attached to this poorly written, poorly researched, logically fallacious, sexist piece of garbage.

    • Kaynes

      An investment bank will take him right up! He could probably even put this in his portfolio.

    • thewatercarrier

      I think adults are more tolerant of well reasoned argument than you give them credit for. It’s those to frightened to speak up for what they believe in that tend to be struggle in the lower echelons. I should know 🙂

    • visionary_23

      I know right? Believing that Men’s Rights are Human Rights is so absurdly sexist within the Feminist ideology.

      • Barf

        Believing that rejecting feminism is absurdly sexist. How dare women try to fix inequalities they face in society!?!

        • visionary_23

          Again, I know right? Like why should men agitate for their issues when the data shows that they’re doing poorly in so many areas? That’s totally “sexist”! But women?! Poor wimmenz!!

          It’s like you inane feminist bigots can’t help yourself with your public displays of hypocrisy.

          • Barf

            So it’s bad when women try to advocate for themselves, but when men do it, it’s okay?? No one said men’s rights activism was sexist. Rejecting either in favor of the other is sexist. Both genders face problems, and diminishing the others’ is bad.

            “It’s like you inane feminist bigots can’t help yourself with your public displays of hypocrisy.” That is just rude and unfounded and a pathetic excuse for an argument or point. Your old philosophy professor is cringing right now and doesn’t know why.

          • visionary_23

            No one said men’s rights activism was sexist.

            Uh, PLENTY of feminists do exactly that.

            So it’s bad when women try to advocate for themselves, but when men do it, it’s okay??

            No, advocate for yourselves all you want. But don’t call yourselves commensurate with “gender equality” when your ideology has ignored the issues of other genders for over half a century. And get out of the way of those who do take those issues seriously — you know, instead of commenting that an MRA article about the issues affecting men is “poorly researched, logically fallacious, sexist piece of garbage.” Gracias.

            That is just rude and unfounded and a pathetic excuse for an argument or point. Your old philosophy professor is cringing right now and doesn’t know why.

            Uh, or it’s spot on, particularly in light of your comments. Apologies if your vitrolic garbage no longer is accepted as legitimate prima facie because your ideology has lost its monopoly on gender based discussions. It must be disconcerting.

          • V8beetle

            When you do so with lies, yes it is bad. I gave numerous literature examples on this very article.

  • visionary_23

    Perhaps when feminists start advocating for gender specific programs to help boys and men who are at risk for suicide or boys and men who are homeless instead of banning the word “Bossy” via a twitter hashtag campaign, we’ll get on board.

    Until then, we’ll be rightfully wary of their notions of “gender equality” — and groups that actually care about those issues (like the MRA) deserve to exist.

  • Jenna Wilson

    I think the video in this article, and the rest of the article, pretty much sums it up.

    http://mic.com/articles/92251/a-bro-thinks-he-knows-what-college-is-like-jessica-williams-sets-him-straight

  • Chris Peer

    Hi, good article but one problem. Feminism has never been about equally treating both males and females. Feminism is the very things that they claim the patriarchy consist. Although feminist has changed the meaning of patriarchy a little. Instead of a male being the head, of say a household, feminist hold the argument that the patriarchy is a whole system of men, every man really, that seek to oppress females for the benefit of men. I wish I could remember the book but the book that did really kick start feminism laid claim that, after going through other options, women need to group together against men to beat this thing called a “patriarchy.” Although the writing was philosophical in nature the writings were/are very poor. Case in point the right to vote. Women just demanded that right and it was just handed to them where on the other hand throughout history we have seen that for males the right to vote came along with the obligation to fight in a war and run a huge risk of dying for the state they lived within and even in some countries men still had this obligation without being able to vote unless they owned land. Can anyone say runon?

    • Nathan

      A bit confused by your points regarding the right to vote. What is the issue at play there?

      • Chris Peer

        The fact that women believed that the right to vote was being withheld from them for being female and blaming males for withholding that right while at the same time ignoring the duties that came with the right. Even after they got the right to vote it did not come with any responsibilities. Which feminist never make that point. In short the voting right issue discredits their claims of what a patriarchy consist of or that one even exist. Also it shows that men do have very serious issues in society when one contrast them to women upon which females do not suffer from…like the issue surrounding the right to vote. So the issue is not about the right to vote but what that right entails for men and women and what those differences show in response to the feminist claims.

        • Jenna Wilson

          What does the right to vote entail for men that it does not entail for women?

          • Chris Peer

            Did they make you just because you are a female and can now vote? https://www.sss.gov/default.htm …No that is only if you were born with a penis.

          • Jenna Wilson

            I honestly didn’t know that was required. Thank you for that information.

        • Nathan

          I was under the impression that women weren’t ALLOWED to fight in wars at the time of the women suffrage movement. Not sure then how they are to blame for not shouldering additional responsibility…

          • visionary_23

            But in the 100 years since, and certainly in the last 50 years (when women have, in every federal election, controlled the voting electorate), feminists haven’t exactly been agitating for selective service for women.

  • Doug Lefelhocz

    I don’t like quoting the Kanin study. I don’t really know if it’s a good study or not (NOR do I know if other studies of false rape accusations are good studies methodologically or not).

    That said, the author’s point here does not hinge on the issue of false rape accusations. There exists MUCH, MUCH more to male disadvantage, and even discrimination against men and boys. As some more examples:

    The death penalty in practice usually only applies to men, and oftentimes *legally* can only get applied to men. Men make up the majority of victims of violence in the world. In the U. S. men don’t have an explicit right to genital integrity, while women do. Men have to register with the Selective Service System and face penalization if they don’t do so. Women don’t have to do so. Men don’t have a right to legal parental surrender *even when raped*, while women do via abortion *or adoption*. Men die earlier on average. Boys suffer from corporal punishment more often than girls. Male rape victims get classified as something other than rape victims by the Center for Disease Control… http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape/

    The U. S. has a National Council on Women and Girls. The U. S. does NOT have a Council on Men and Boys in spite of a several year proposal to create one.

    To reiterate one issue mentioned above… men are disproportionally the victims of violence.

    Those who want to cavalierly dismiss the Men’s Human Rights Movement, would do much better to read books such as The Second Sexism by David Benatar, The Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell, Men on Strike by Helen Smith, Spreading Misandry, and Legalizing Misandry by Katherine Young and Paul Nathanson.

    • He’s stupid

      The author tried to back up the Kanin study with a different paper. Clearly didn’t read that paper because there’s a >1 page railing of the Kanin study and an evaluation of “methodologically sound” studies that all show much lower rates of false reports. Just sheer ignorance. It’s all higher up in the comments section.

  • Charlie Hurd

    Thanks for your excellent response to the HeforShe campaign, which is just another feminist campaign as detailed in the mission statement. Better to just support a human rights movement, rather than a gendered movement. Or a men’s movement to make up for 50 years of a one-sided movement that only focused on women’s issues.

  • UIUC

    THIS ARTICLE IS FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED IN ALL ASPETS

    • visionary_23

      If you’re going to make baseless comments in all caps, at least try to spell correctly. It does all of us a service.

      • uiuc

        Do us all a service and swallow bleach

    • Nathan

      You were one S away from making me chuckle xD

      • UIUC

        drink bleach

        • Guest

          That escalated quickly :S

  • UGH

    This comments section is disgusting. All these jerks telling women that the sexism they face isn’t real yet chastising women for not supporting them in their own fights for equality. This is gross. I am ashamed to share an alma mater with you.

    • visionary_23

      “This comments section is disgusting. All these jerks telling men that the sexism they face isn’t real yet chastising men for not supporting them in their own fights for equality. This is gross.”

      Oh wait, no. That’s feminism.

    • V8beetle

      I don’t think any man here is denying women face problems at all. However, there is an intentional effort to conflate concepts, deny responsibility, and also to deny male victims of women/female perpetrators primarily by feminists as denoted here by a female academic no less. https://www.clarku.edu/faculty/dhines/Hines%20Brown%20and%20Dunning%202007%20DAHM.pdf

      When the problems women face, are shared also by men, yet the public/political discourse portrays those same issues as mutually exclusive to women, thus excluding men, it’s dishonest, and morally reprehensible.

  • Mstrx

    Feminism is a morally bankrupt bowel movement and needs to be flushed like the rest of civilization’s excrement.

    If it were not for men and masculinity we would all be washing clothes down by the river and living in grass huts while our museums would be feminist wastelands.

    The only purpose of Women’s Studies is to enable the contemptible and whiny women a platform to blame men their failings and self-delusions

    Feminism has contributed nothing to civilization.

    • LOL

      …not a single piece of evidence for this garbage claim. You tell me, what should we do about feminism? Replace it? Reform it? Or consciously ignore inequalities that women face and continue to perpetuate them and let men benefit from them unjustly?

      • Mstrx

        Men created nearly every work of art and science and engineering. THAT is a fact.

        Women face challenges and so do men.

        Feminists whine.

        • LOL

          Women couldn’t vote or hold office or go to school or own property until extremely recently, when you consider how long civilization has been around for. Men created those works of art and science and engineering while they were putting down women and benefiting from their oppression. Men did not accomplish all that by natural superiority alone; they got that by embracing sexism.

          • Mstrx

            Most men could not vote unless they owned land. Black men could not vote. 18 year old men being sent to Viet Nam to die for your freedom could not vote.

            Please stop the self centered whining.

            If a wife committed a crime, the man was jailed. And despite all your whining one thing remains unchanged: MEN STILL CREATED AL MOST ALL OF THE WORLD’S SCIENCE ART AND ENGINEERING.

            Men did it.

            And men died protecting women, too.

  • UIUC

    I am going to disregard the line “We can do our best to try and attain consent” as a sad misuse of words the author does not understand in the hopes that no one in the world actually believes “trying your best” to attain consent makes any subsequent action okay.

    I honestly think the person who wrote this does not understand the definition of feminism. By definition, feminism is the advocacy for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. This does not imply hating men (misandry) nor does it imply a disregard for issues faced primarily by men. Feminism does not “claim” to be rooted in equality. It is, by definition, advocating for equality.

    There are so many more issues with this viewpoint, but mostly, it just makes me sad that in 2014 at the University of Notre Dame, someone could express a view like this.

    • V8beetle

      What’s sad UIUC, is that you rather gullibly, naively cling to the delusion that feminism correlates to the dictionary definition when in fact that couldn’t be further from the truth based on the fact that feminists right now are opposing a shared parenting bill using the same lying statistics they’ve used for a decade or more. Sources are readily available.

  • Johnny Whichard

    Matthew! You are THE MAN! Cheers!

  • Nathan

    That’s actually a very fair point, and something I think should definitely be one of the main messages brought up by the MRM. Double standards (particularly legal ones) are toxic and I think you could actually get a lot of support (particularly if it wasn’t pegged to any movement, but just cited as a double standard). I feel like the movement could get a lot of good public image back that way

    • visionary_23

      Thanks for agreeing with that notion. It’s one of the most blatant forms of anti-male bias institutionally — and unsurprisingly doesn’t make the radar of our “gender equality” feminists even, laughably, when they’re almost exclusively talking about rape and its expanded definitions.

      To be fair, without the saber rattling by the MRM in the first place, nothing would have happened. How do we know? Nothing happened for 50 years on these issues when feminism was in charge. The bias in the CDC was uncovered and repeatedly reported on BY MRM people.

      As an aside, just to make certain you’re consistent, do you equally argue that feminists shouldn’t state they’re feminists (or for women’s rights) when they speak about putative double standards against women and policy measures to counteract that? If so, know that the President and First Lady don’t even do that.

      • Nathan

        What I was trying to articulate is that the mens rights movement and feminist movements face different circumstances and thus their approaches shouldn’t mirror each other. On paper, men do dominate society in the arenas of politics and business meaning that a movement for mens rights is inherently going to meet more skepticism than a movement for womens rights. This doesn’t mean that the problems can’t be fixed, but the same tactics that feminists use won’t necessarily work as well.

        An analogy for this is two students with the same grade point averages. One though has a series of B range scores while the other has all As and one D/F. Technically they both have worse grades than they want, but they both will need to address them in different ways.

        • visionary_23

          What I was trying to articulate is that the mens rights movement and feminist movements face different circumstances and thus their approaches shouldn’t mirror each other.

          Ok, so what’s the play here?

          I don’t exactly understand in practice what you’re asserting — how do we take your advice and “bring up double standards” like “made to penetrate not being rape” without being “part of a movement”? Particularly when anyone who actually argues those issues is dismissed by feminists as minimizing female concerns. See Gloria Steinem’s op ed in the NY times in august of 2014 criticizing the ONE program for men and boys that the president allowed for because it didn’t involve girls — which was for black young men who are more likely to die, be less educated, be incarcerated, and commit suicide than virtually any other group. Surely a program helping black young men is something EVERYONE can get on board with, no? Oh, and as an aside, in 5 years, the president has created about FORTY SEVEN specific programs/executive orders/policies solely for girls and women.

          In other words, how would we do what you argue, given that? I’m interested — and hopeful for a response that isn’t naive to the climate that exists socially on gender issues.

          As an aside, on paper, men also dominate the homeless, the sick, the early dead, the raped, the victims of violence, of crime, and of incarceration while controlling the minority electorate, wealth, while paying the majority of taxes. Yet every government policy dealing with THOSE issues (i.e. NOT in politics or business) STILL helps women — with the backing of feminist groups. How would you simultaneously advocate for those groups — for which the overwhelming predictive variable of being a part of that group is “being male” — and still not be “part of a movement”?

  • michellemichelle

    I don’t know what is more disheartening: this awful article or the comments section featuring dozens of posts denying the existence of sexism. Women have been neglected and abused for hundreds of years. In the US, women are subject to overwhelming sexual violence and domestic abuse. Not to mention the constant threat of violence nearly every time a woman walks down the street. Women are underrepresented in government and are paid less for equal work. Historically, our laws have been slanted in favor of men because, after all, men did the drafting. The Model Penal Code STILL does not recognize marital rape as a crime. The article (and comments) perpetrates this notion that women hold power in rape cases, but that is far from true. The Penal Codes of many states do not even recognize the basic truth that no means no. The case law is even more distressing (courts have held that women have given consent based on a “look” or an outfit, despite having vocally said no). Globally, problems for women are even worse. Women are denied basic human rights from the right to an education to driving privileges.

    Are boys falling behind in school? Yes. And that is an urgent problem that needs to be fixed. But the message of this article is so incomprehensibly tone deaf that I am ashamed to say that the author and I will share an alma mater. Education is not a zero sum game, and we should work to elevate the capabilities of male and female students. And the article’s claim that men are the overwhelming victims of false rape accusations is hard to take seriously given that rape underreporting on college campuses is a serious and well-documented problem. It is particularly distressing to hear this opinion coming from someone from Notre Dame, a school whose rape investigation process was rightly criticized following the tragic death of a student. The article’s other specious arguments are not worth addressing. I hope that Mr. D’Emic uses his remaining time at Notre Dame to learn about the urgent problems facing women and other neglected groups in the world, not only those in his own community but also those across the globe.

    • David

      Women are underrepresented in government because they don’t run. A study in Australia showed only 1% of girls have aspirations to one day run for a political office. Most women do not aspire to be leaders. They aspire to be teachers, nurturers, supporters, etc. Men aspire to be leaders, inventors, explorers, discoverers. Not to say women can’t do those things too, they just don’t seem to want to…at least not in any sizable number. 90% of women would be perfect content with a successful husband, a flexible part-time career, and a couple children. That’s all women want.

      • michellemichelle

        David– Generalizing the hopes and dreams of women across the globe from one study done in Australia is not a valid way of assessing all that women want. What is your basis for saying that the only thing that women want is a husband and children? The last 100 years, as well as observable facts about the world definitively prove the opposite.

        Many times, girls and women do not run for office or seek positions of power because they have been socialized into believing that those positions are not open to them. Or because, once on the track to a higher profile position, they find that they are not supported as well or given the same esteem that men enjoy.

        I don’t want to jump all over your comment because you do not seem to know very much about women’s rights (or women in general for that matter). But I hope that you do some serious thinking on this topic. I’m sure the women in your life would appreciate if you recognized that they have hopes and dreams that do not revolve around the family.

  • Quote Investments LTD.

    These sandwiches dont make themselves

  • tony

    you are knott men

  • IanC

    So very true Octavian!