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Mandatory vaccines

| Monday, March 14, 2016

Currently, children between the ages of zero and six years old receive an average of 28 doses of ten different vaccines. Although there is no federal mandate requiring these vaccinations, all 50 states have some sort of requirement for public schools. This has sparked debates over the legality of these mandatory vaccinations, especially pertaining to preschools and elementary education. While parents are entitled to make medical decisions for their children, public schools should continue to mandate vaccinations in order to protect the welfare of their communities.

The first concern many parents bring up regarding mandatory vaccinations is the side effects. Since many of these vaccinations are given at a young age, parents are often concerned that the negative side effects could have a lasting impact on their child’s development. In 1998, Andrew Wakefield published a study that claimed there was a link between Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccinations and autism in children. In 2005, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wrote an article for Rolling Stone claiming that thimerosal caused “speech delays, attention-deficit disorder, hyperactivity and autism” in young children. However both of these claims have been discredited numerous times. In fact, the British Journal of Medicine reported that Wakefield had received over $650,000 in bribe money from multiple law firms to fake test results. While Kennedy’s thimerosal study was also disproved by the American Academy of Pediatrics and the U.S. Public Health Service, thimerosal is currently not administrated in vaccinations for children younger than six as a precaution. Because multiple scientific studies have proven that vaccines are not linked to these lasting side effects, parents cannot use this argument as a reason to not vaccinate their children. However, there is a direct correlation between children who are not vaccinated and children who contract diseases such as pertussis and/or the chickenpox. Therefore, schools should mandate vaccinations based on the most recent studies preformed by the medical community.

Another reason some people are not in favor of mandated vaccinations is because they don’t think that government should be interfering with their medical decisions. Whether it is from an extreme libertarian or a religious rights perspective, some people believe that it’s not the job of the government to dictate whether a child is vaccinated or not. While the government’s reach is a valid political and philosophical issue, it is not a valid argument against mandated vaccinations. Because the government is funding the public school system, legally they can require participants to have certain vaccinations before attending. If certain beliefs cause parents to feel strongly that they do not want to vaccinate their children, they always have the option of homeschooling them. Since there are no federal laws requiring vaccinations, there is no legal force requiring parents to disregard their beliefs or ideals and vaccinate their kids. However, they will have to accept that they will be limiting their education options. Because the legal systems still allows parents to make this choice, the public schooling system should continue to require vaccines in order to protect the wellbeing of the students the school is responsible for.

One of the emerging arguments against mandated childhood vaccinations is that the pharmaceutical companies, FDA and CDC should not be trusted to regulate vaccines. Looking back at the Turing Pharmaceuticals scandal where the CEO increased the price of a lifesaving drug by 5,000 percent, corruption within the industry is clearly a valid concern. However, the vaccines currently required for all public schools are not new drugs. DTaP, IVP, MMR, Varicella and Hepatitis B have all been extensively studied and have persisted to survive media controversies and political questionings. For a drug to be required at every public school throughout the United States, the scrutiny it would undergo by both the scientific and political communities would prevent any one corrupt organization from providing harmful vaccinations. For example, even the annual flu shot is still optional in every state except Connecticut. Therefore, these current vaccinations should stay mandated due to the years of analysis that support their authenticity.

Clearly, public schools should mandate vaccinations in order to prevent harmful diseases from spreading throughout the school’s population and into the greater community. Although vaccinations should still be mandated, researching any vaccination before receiving it as well as understanding your family’s medical history is important. Hopefully by promoting vaccine use, people lucky enough to have access to these vaccines can work with other nations to help the children in their communities also have access to this great medical achievement.

For more information on the arguments surrounding mandated vaccinations, please visit vaccines.procon.org.

The views expressed in this column are those of the author and not necessarily those of The Observer.

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  • AnneShaw1

    Lots of mistakes in this article. For example, NJ also mandates the flu shot for school. You’re young – you’re a student. Your school has a lot of big pharma money pumped into it, as all schools do. You’ll either have a vaccine reaction, or have a loved one that has a vaccine reaction, in your lifetime and then you’ll understand. There are hundreds of thousands that have been injured by vaccines, and yet no exemption for them after they are injured. There is no recourse for injury – sure there is the vaccine court that most people don’t know about, but it almost never pays out, and when it does it takes 10 years to do so and they haggle over every little thing. Pharma companies have no incentive to make safe vaccines because they are untouchable – no liability.

    • Joseph

      Please give good citations for your claims.
      This, I think, will help put things into perspective.
      The vaccine court handles almost all vaccine related litigation. It has paid out for less than one person injured per one million vaccines given. This is where I got my figures:
      http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/index.html

      I am aware that you have other talking points at your finger tips, almost all pro disease commenters do. That’s find, feel free to push them out at a reasonable pace and I’ll be happy to discuss them with you.

      • Johnny Whichard

        What he said ^ Some sources would be great.

      • Here you go Joseph – deal with these:

        The purpose of the polio vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of non-trauma paralysis and crippling. It failed.

        The purpose of the rubella vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of congenital defects. It failed.

        The purpose of the measles vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of encephalitis and deafness. It failed.

        The purpose of the Hep B vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of liver cancer/disease. It failed.

        The purpose of the Hib and Prevnar vaccines was to bring about a reduction in total rates of meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. They failed.

        The purpose of the diphtheria/pertussis vaccines was to bring about a reduction in acute respiratory infections. They failed.

        The purpose of the mumps vaccine was to reduce sterility. It failed.

        References

        Rubella and congenital defects: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5701a2.htm. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/8935557_The_Metropolitan_Atlanta_Congenital_Defects_Program_35_Years_of_Birth_Defects_Surveillance_at_the_Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention

        Polio and paralysis/crippling:

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206817678372895&set=a.1750128025376.2087895.1004117169&type=3&theater (before you say “but this is just a facebook site” it uses the following WHO data)

        extranet.who.int/polis/public/CaseCount.aspx and http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(3)321.pdf (see data for total AFP in India and other developing countries in 1996 and again in 2014) as well as http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v18n6/v18n6p20.pdf and http://www.census.gov/people/disability/ publications/sipp2010.html (Table A-4) (for disability rates). And http://www.christopherreeve.org/site/c.mtKZKgMWKwG/b.5184189/k.5587/Paralysis_Facts__Figures.htm (Around one in 50 Americans have some paralysis and around 40 per cent of those cases are due to disease).

        Diphtheria/pertussis and acute respiratory disease: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804877 and http://www.pharmacytoday.co.nz/news/2015/may-2015/05/respiratory-hospitalisations-keep-climbing-despite-healthcare-improvements.aspx

        Hep B vaccine and liver cancer/disease:

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224838 and http://news.sky.com/story/1418422/dramatic-rise-in-liver-disease-deaths

        Hib vaccine and meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/source/rpt_2.cfm… (look at meningococcal disease (invasive) and pneumococcal disease (invasive)) and because of the dismal failure of this vaccine it was inevitably followed by further attempts to vaccinate people against meningitis supposedly caused by other strains (eg Prevnar) showing that abject lunacy (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result) is the standard procedure for vaccination policy experts. Further information here https://avn.org.au/hib/

        Measles vaccine and encephalitis/deafness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870605/ and http://www.hear-it.org/35-million-Americans-suffering-from-hearing-loss

        I will give these two non-government sites – http://www.childhealthsafety.com/graphs (all of the data comes from government mortality data) and http://vaccinationdilemma.com/chapters/Chapter2.pdf because they demonstrate that the notion that vaccines save lives is a complete lie and the WHO cannot be trusted at all on this issue.

        • So what has happened to all these so-called vaccine preventable diseases if their complications are still just as, if not more, common but we no longer hear about them?

          They have all been renamed – differentially diagnosed.

          Measles has been renamed roseola, fifth disease, etc;

          Polio has been renamed Guillain Barre, transverse myelitis, coxsackie, MS, cerebral palsy, viral meningitis (we actually use more respirators today than we ever did iron lungs by the way it is just that iron lungs were too expensive and dangerous to keep using);

          Diphtheria/pertussis were renamed respiratory syncytial virus, croup, strep, pharyngitis , tonsillitis etc;

          Hepatitis just runs its way through the alpabet;

          Meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on Hib was renamed meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on some other bacteria;

          Smallpox was renamed monkey pox/severe chicken pox.

          So how did this all happen?

          Well ironically, it didn’t happen because of some wide conspiratorial effort to lie to the public – quite the opposite. It happened because doctors genuinely believed in vaccinations.

          Once a vaccine is introduced doctors are prejudiced against diagnosing that condition based on their belief/hope that the vaccine will work. Indeed, this is why the gold standard for testing is supposed to be a *double* blind placebo trial – the doctor is not supposed to know you received the treatment because it will bias their diagnoses. Unfortunately, the data that is used to prove that vaccines work is not blinded. So why are they prejudiced? Well quite simply because they believe that the vaccine works! The whole thing is so incredibly simple and obvious really, but very often the more simple and obvious it is the harder it is to get our heads around how so many people could miss it – but there are thousands of historical precedents for such things.

          • Now, while this “diagnostic bias” makes perfect sense some of you might want to see more concrete evidence of it and you are in luck because, you see, while doctors don’t generally need much encouragement in their pro-treatment bias, health bureaucracies will often explicitly encourage it anyway.

            “To minimize the problem of false positive laboratory results, it is important to restrict case investigation and laboratory tests to patients most likely to have measles (i.e., those who meet the clinical case definition, especially if they have risk factors for measles, such as being unvaccinated,[…]”

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

            And here is the UK’s National Health Service: “Following assessment, if a diagnosis of measles is considered likely, it is essential to notify the local Health Protection Unit (HPU)” and subsequently: “Measles is very unlikely in people who have been fully immunized”, followed by “Consider a different cause if the patient is likely to have immunity” http://cks.nice.org.uk/measles#!diagnosissub

            And this is for diphtheria: “Because diphtheria has occurred only rarely in the United States in recent years, many clinicians may not include diphtheria in their differential diagnoses. Clinicians are reminded to consider the diagnosis of respiratory diphtheria in patients with membranous pharyngitis and who are not up-to-date with vaccination against diphtheria.”

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt01-dip.html

            And this is for pertussis http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/pertussis/professionals-professionnels-eng.php. According to the Canadian Public Health Agency only those who are not vaccinated (or for whom immunity has ‘waned’) are “at risk”.

            And for polio: “Consider polio in patients presenting with polio-like symptoms, especially if the person is unvaccinated and has recently traveled abroad to a place where polio still occurs, or was exposed to a person who recently traveled from such an area.” http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/828839#vp_2

            “In the absence of known smallpox disease, the predictive value of a positive smallpox diagnostic test is extremely low; therefore, testing to rule out smallpox should be limited to cases that fit the clinical case definition in order to lower the risk of obtaining a false-positive test result. “ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/diagnosis/casedefinition.asp and what is more even the deified polymerase chain reaction (PCR) can and has apparently given positive results for smallpox since its supposed eradication but, again, it couldn’t have been smallpox because we all know smallpox doesn’t exist does it? http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/abstract_meyer.pdf

            In addition to the above, (as you can see from the above links and this one http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt12-polio.html and http://vactruth.com/2015/07/05/cdc-made-polio-disappear/) once a vaccine is introduced, generally speaking the diagnostic criteria is strengthened such that all cases need to be confirmed with a laboratory test (whereas before practically all cases are diagnosed on symptoms alone). Along with the pro-treatment bias of the doctors this pretty much guarantees that the number of diagnosed cases will fall dramatically – irrespective of whether the vaccine did any good.

          • And before people say “but what about the different viruses?” You need to remember that we virtually never looked for the specific disease causing germ before the vaccine is introduced (we simply assumed it was there) so the only way to make a sensible comparison is to compare the rates of symptoms/complications of these diseases before and after their vaccines to evaluate whether they worked.

            In fact, demanding laboratory confirmation today (when it was never required before the vaccine) simply reinforces the fact that the decline in diseases is not real.

          • As for the vaccine court – the Court was specifically designed to protect the vaccine industry. That is its only purpose and it is run by people who whole-heartedly believe in and are desperate to protect he vaccine program.

            The standard of evidence for vaccine injury is vastly higher than the standard of evidence required for injuries/deaths due to so-called vaccine preventable diseases. In other words it is a complete fraud.

            If someone with measles dies the next day then doctors will declare it was the measles that killed them. But if someone who gets vaccinated dies the next day that will not be sufficient to lay blame to the vaccine.

            The only way to prove the schedule is safe is to “stress test” it. This means giving a willing adult at the very least the entire infant schedule adjusted for their body weight (it should actually be much larger than that but baby steps).

            When, and only when they do that, can we claim that the schedule is remotely safe.

            Not that it would matter. We know for a fact that vaccines cause injuries because there are plenty of challenge, rechallenge events involving vaccines and injuries (including autism). This is proof of causation for all medicines. Doctors ignore such cases for vaccines because vaccines are a sacred cow and they are all encouraged to lie to cover up the damage vaccines do (not that many of them need much encouraging).

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Why don’t you complain to Barbara Loe Fisher? She was instrumental in creating the Vaccine Court.

          • Standard argument for feeble pro-vaxxers. None of you can argue on facts and you always just resort to people’s opinions.

            At any rate, Fisher has admitted that it has led to massive problems noting that when it was formed the number of vaccines was vastly less than there are today. It was meant to protect what was a vastly less intrusive vaccine schedule – I don’t agree with that because all vaccines should be banned and those responsible should be in prison – but at the time I assume Fisher believed that vaccines were at their core a good idea.

            But now it is about protecting a massively bloated vaccine schedule that even if you accept the initial premise of vaccines has gotten completely out of hand with endless boosters and germ replacement covering up the fact that not a single vaccine has ever worked in all of human history.

            In the 80s doctors were just stupid. Today, every single one of them is complicit in the greatest crime in history.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You are obviously mentally-ill.

          • Poor Lawrence. If you are going to go with the whole “you are crazy” gambit you have to do it at the very beginning. If you try your luck with “substantive” arguments and use the crazy bit as a last resort then everybody can see through the ruse.

            They probably could anyway to be fair but this just makes it worse.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Actually, because I know you – I should have started out with the crazy statement, given your history.

            But, your assertions fall flat when presented against reality. So I’ll just leave it there.

          • Oh ok – “when presented against reality”. That settles it then.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes, when presented against the fact that people don’t get these diseases anymore…..

          • I demonstrated that they were all just renamed instead.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, you didn’t. You made blanket assertions without evidence.

            That’s just lying.

          • AutismDadd

            Shouldn’t you be getting your fabulous meds upped?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            When all you have left is petty insults, you know you’ve lost….go home, I believe you should be paying attention to your son.

          • AutismDadd

            Where have I heard that before? Oh yea a shill with a different name.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I guess rational minds think alike.

          • AutismDadd

            How would you know?

          • AutismDadd

            What they got WASN’T exactly what they wanted shill boy.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes, all she wanted was a piggy bank, so that anyone who claimed anything related to vaccines would get paid, instead, they rely on actual science to make that determination….

          • AutismDadd

            Go stick your **** in a light socket creep.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And that’s your response? And you still wonder why no one takes anti-vaxers seriously.

          • AutismDadd

            Just do it and zip it.

          • AutismDadd

            Congrat’s on identifying that as my response. Very good, you get a gold star.

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. You have the handbook memorized.

          • Jenny Higgs

            Any actual evidence that anyone here is getting paid?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Double-blind placebos are part of the FDA Clinical Trial process…heck, even Gardisil used Placebos during testing (with saline & everything).

          • Joseph

            I should tell you, Lawrence, that I have dealt with the person you are arguing with before.
            He doesn’t believe in germ theory. He has other problems with anything relating to science, but that, in a nut shell, is him.

            I have made the decision not to engage him, it seems to stroke his ego. I do respond to his lies if only to keep him from committing murder. (A vaccine preventable death that is caused by him WOULD BE murder.)

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I know Tristan. He is obviously mentally ill. Luckily, anyone with any common sense at all, and even a little scientific education, can easily see through his lies and misinformation.

          • Luckily there is no such thing as a vaccine preventable death as none of them work.

            Didn’t you read the above Joseph. I have proved that none of them worked. Why did you just ignore it? Is it because anything that disagrees with you must be wrong because it gives you bad feelz?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I love it when you say “proved,” because you’ve done nothing of the sort.

            Explain the reduction in Hib.

          • Who cares if it has been reduced or not? The purpose of the vaccine was to reduce meningitis – at the time we were told that Hib caused 90 per cent of under 5 meningitis cases – and meningitis cases have not fallen significantly.

            Whether or not it has reduced the bacteria is completely unknowable – as well as irrelevant – because we don’t know the number of people – both sick and healthy with Hib today and we certainly didn’t know it 200, 100, 50, 30 etc years ago.

            We know that lots of healthy people had it and still have it but we have no idea about relative numbers.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/hib/default.htm?s_cid=

            No, the purpose of the vaccine was to reduce the incidence of Hib – which it has.

          • So you admit then that the government introduced a massively expensive vaccine program complete with all the risks of the vaccine itself knowing full well that it would have absolutely no measurable impact on the health of children (vis-a-vis meningitis) whatsoever?

            In that case, all people involved in the vaccine program are barefaced lunatics and should *definitely* be in prison shouldn’t they?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, the purpose of vaccines are to reduce the incidence of disease – which they have done.

            https://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

          • But Hib isn’t a disease.

            Did you not know that?

            Or are you just happy to constantly contradict yourself?

            At any rate, we don’t have data for disease incidence. What you have there is notification data not the same and hopelessly biased in favour of the vaccine.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You really don’t understand what Project Tycho is, do you?

          • You are welcome to explain how exactly they have managed to find incidence data.

            How exactly did they account for people who never visited the doctor but still had the symptoms? How did they account for those who visited the doctor but the doctor didn’t bother considering the disease or did, but because they didn’t want the paperwork, just didn’t bother notifying it?

          • Joseph

            Sorry, for once I have to say that there have been deaths from diseases that vaccines could have prevented.
            You see, your big failure is your refusal to follow the evidence that proves, PROVES that vaccines work.
            You can believe what you want, but as I mentioned earlier, if you try to go through a door you “believe” is open when it is shut, it can hurt. (Think walking into a clean plate glass door, might help.)
            Vaccines are based on facts, not beliefs. Neither my beliefs nor yours will alter the facts.
            And with that, have a good evening, I need dead cow.

          • Complete lie.

            Just because they had a placebo doesn’t mean it was a placebo trial. They never compared the vaccine to the placebo (at least not for severe/systemic reactions) so it wasn’t a placebo trial.

            What I find staggering is that you think it is perfectly acceptable for Merck to have been tricky here with their ridiculous use of the placebo. What does it gain you? I mean you know that they were being deliberately deceptive and yet you actively allow yourself to be deceived!

            If you know what Merck did and the fraud – well actually it is much worse than fraud, they deliberately caused grievous bodily harm to their subjects and should all be in prison – then how could you even contemplate giving the vaccine to your children unless you yourself are indescribably evil?

            I would sooner shoot myself than allow my kids to have this disgusting concoction because I am a man of honour who puts the safety of my children above any need to fit in with society.

            But you don’t care a jot about the welfare of your family (assuming you have one). The only interest you have is social approval.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Sorry, but you are wrong. Perhaps you should do further research, since Gardisil was compared against saline placebo….

          • No it wasn’t. There was a saline placebo. The vaccine was never compared to it though (at least not for severe/systemic reactions).

            But that’s ok. If I am wrong then by all means provide these results of vaccines vs saline placebo.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Just pull up the results of the clinical trials Tristan….

          • You do that.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I already did.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And you’re moving the goalposts, like a typical anti-vaxer anyway.

          • Provide the quotes showing me shifting these goalposts Lawrence.

            If not, I will just assume you are either a liar or don’t know what goalpost shifting means.

            Most likely both.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            “The vaccine was never compared to it though (at least not for severe/systemic reactions)”

            Your direct quote – that’s an admission & moving the goalposts.

            You lose.

          • “Your direct quote – that’s an admission & moving the goalposts.”

            Que?

            Do you even understand what the definition of words are?

            How is that me moving the goalposts?

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • Judith

            You are right Tristan – there was a small saline placebo but they manipulated the study
            http://www.vaccidemic.org/posts/how-pharma-concocts-and-skews-vaccine-safety-trials/

          • Judith

            No the Gardasil trial process was fudged:

            “The Gardasil group had 5,088 subjects… The first control group received an aluminum-containing placebo (3,470 subjects). The second control group received a saline placebo (only 320 subjects).

            When comparing minor AE’s (adverse events), Merck compared data for both placebo groups, clearly showing which ones occurred in the saline group and which one occurred in the aluminum group. However, when comparing data for serious AE’s, Merck COMBINED the two placebo groups and then compared it to the Gardasil group.
            They do not reveal the difference in serious AE’s between the aluminum placebo group and the saline group.”

            http://www.vaccidemic.org/posts/how-pharma-concocts-and-skews-vaccine-safety-trials/

            .

          • Lawrence McNamara

            How about providing a real citation…..

            And since then, all large scale follow-up safety studies have confirmed both the excellent safety record and efficacy of the vaccine (which have included hundreds of thousands of participants).

          • Jonathan Graham

            Judith – you have been shown MANY MANY TIMES that what you’re saying simply isn’t true. Study 018 compared the vaccine to a saline placebo for ALL adverse events. Do you need to see the link again?

          • Judith

            You can see if you check the link page 6,7,8 that for the minor reactions they use 3 different groups – Gardasil, AAHS and saline. When it comes to the more severe reactions they combine the AAHS (Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate) and the Saline. Why do they do that. However, when comparing data for serious AE’s, Merck COMBINED the two placebo groups and then compared it to the Gardasil group.

            . They do not reveal the difference in serious AE’s between the aluminum placebo group and the saline group. Obviously this hides the

            adverse reactions by diluting the aluminium group. Anyone with half a head can see that.

            http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

            Conditions

            GARDASIL

            (N = 10,706)

            AAHS Control* or Saline Placebo

            (N = 9412)

            n (%)

            n (%)

            Arthralgia/Arthritis/Arthropathy† Autoimmune Thyroiditis

            Celiac Disease

            Diabetes Mellitus Insulin-dependent Erythema Nodosum Hyperthyroidism‡

            Hypothyroidism§

            Inflammatory Bowel Disease¶ Multiple Sclerosis

            Nephritis#

            Optic Neuritis

            Pigmentation DisorderÞ Psoriasisß

            Raynaud’s Phenomenon Rheumatoid Arthritisà Scleroderma/Morphea Stevens-Johnson Syndrome Systemic Lupus Erythematosus Uveitis

            120 (1.1) 4 (0.0) 10 (0.1) 2 (0.0) 2 (0.0) 27 (0.3) 35 (0.3) 7 (0.1) 2 (0.0) 2 (0.0) 2 (0.0) 4 (0.0) 13 (0.1) 3 (0.0) 6 (0.1) 2 (0.0) 1 (0.0) 1 (0.0) 3 (0.0)

            98 (1.0) 1 (0.0) 6 (0.1) 2 (0.0) 4 (0.0) 21 (0.2) 38 (0.4) 10 (0.1) 4 (0.0) 5 (0.1) 0 (0.0) 3 (0.0) 15 (0.2) 4 (0.0) 2 (0.0) 1 (0.0) 0 (0.0) 3 (0.0) 1 (0.0)

            All Conditions

            245 (2.3)

            218 (2.3)

            *AAHS Control = Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate

            †Arthralgia/Arthritis/Arthropathy includes the following terms: Arthralgia, Arthritis, Arthritis reactive, and Arthropathy ‡Hyperthyroidism includes the following terms: Basedow’s disease, Goiter, Toxic nodular goiter, and Hyperthyroidism §Hypothyroidism includes the following terms: Hypothyroidism and thyroiditis

            ¶Inflammatory bowel disease includes the following terms: Colitis ulcerative, Crohn’s disease, and Inflammatory bowel disease

            #Nephritis includes the following terms: Nephritis, Glomerulonephritis minimal lesion, Glomerulonephritis proliferative ÞPigmentation disorder includes the following terms: Pigmentation disorder, Skin depigmentation, and Vitiligo ßPsoriasis includes the following terms: Psoriasis, Pustular psoriasis, and Psoriatic arthropathy

            àRheumatoid arthritis includes juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. One woman counted in the rheumatoid arthritis group reported rheumatoid arthritis as an adverse experience at Day 130.

            N = Number of individuals enrolled

            n = Number of individuals with specific new Medical Conditions

            http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yawn. From page 4 of this document which you apparently haven’t read…

            In 7 clinical trials (5 Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate [AAHS]-controlled, 1 saline placebo-controlled, and 1 uncontrolled),

            Clearly there were seven different trials, all comparing the vaccine vs. different controls. One of which Study 018 was against saline and NOT AAHS and there were not significant differences in results. I’ve already linked you to these results which found no significant difference between JUST the saline placebo group and the JUST vaccine group. The fact that they combined these results in the product literature does not make the fact that they, in one pre-market study compared ONLY to saline placebo go away.

            Seriously, do you need a link to these results which are EXACTLY what you say hasn’t been done again?

          • Judith

            The intent of combining the saline group with the AAHS is to deflect from the fact that the saline group had less adverse events. By combining the two and comparing to the Gardasil group you get much the same. It is trickery and smoke and mirrors. You can sing it up all you want.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well that’s an opinion but that’s really all it is. However the point we are discussing is that you are claiming IT WAS NEVER COMPARED vs. saline alone. Which it was and if you read the link you provided or the one I provided three or four times now. You would know that.

          • Judith

            I have gone back to try to find the link you said you posted – you didn’t so can you post it again.

          • Proponent

            Judith: “I have gone back to try to find the link you said you posted – you didn’t so can you post it again.”

            I already provided the link to Jonathan’s comment for you, Judith.. here.

            Look forward to your response.

            … …

            Oh and note the question in my linked post above.. this one..

            “Jonathan: “Judith – you have been shown MANY MANY TIMES that what you’re saying simply isn’t true. Study 018 compared the vaccine to a saline placebo for ALL adverse events.”

            Which begs the question.. why do you insist on reposting the same nonsense, Judith?

          • Judith

            Only one trial out of 7 used a saline placebo an only 320 were saline and 3470 received aluminium.

            Why not an even number of saline? Why use aluminium at all? Why combine aluminium and saline to dilute the saline?

            In 7 clinical trials (5 Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate [AAHS]-controlled, 1 saline placebo-controlled, and 1 uncontrolled), 18,083 individuals were administered GARDASIL or AAHS control or saline placebo on the day of enrollment, and approximately 2 and 6 months thereafter, and safety was evaluated using vaccination report cards (VRC)-aided surveillance for 14 days after each injection of GARDASIL or AAHS control or saline placebo in these individuals.

            Merck reports saline results only for injection site reactions measured for no longer than 5 days. It does not report saline results for later reactions, or systemic (not just local injection site) reactions.

            In the data that IS reported, those receiving Gardasil experienced:

            173% more pain

            350% more swelling

            203% more erythema (redness and inflammation)

            517% more pruritus (itching)

            than the saline group (Appendix D, pp11-12).

            In the product information insert, Merck reports cases of arthritis (juvenile, rheumatoid, and reactive) and lupus among the test subjects after Gardasil treatments. They do not report the ages of those affected, nor how many doses each received.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yes you are correct -they did a small saline control.

            Finally. Yay you decided to read something. No admission of willfully spreading false information though. Not to mention no apologies for accusing people of having some kind of relation or affection for the pharmaceutical industry.

            Why not an even number of saline? Why use an aluminium placebo at all?

            It depends on what the study is trying to determine. For example if the object of concern is the antigen. The tighter you make your control the larger the antigen effect size is.

            Why combine aluminium and saline

            Larger sample size, greater statistical power.

          • Jonathan Graham
          • Judith

            You haven’t sent me the link. Can you send it again

          • Proponent

            No worries..

            Knock yourself out, Judith.

            … …

            Jonathan’s earlier post/comment is interesting..

            Jonathan: “Judith – you have been shown MANY MANY TIMES that what you’re saying simply isn’t true. Study 018 compared the vaccine to a saline placebo for ALL adverse events.”

            Which begs the question.. why do you insist on reposting the same nonsense, Judith?

          • Jonathan Graham

            It has been posted in response to you saying similar things to the above at least three or four times now. If I post it again do you promise to READ it this time? If it shows no significant aggregate difference between the two groups. Will you stop saying this monstrously stupid thing you are saying?

          • Will you stop saying this monstrously stupid thing you are saying?
            It’s usually best to set realistic goals, Jonathan.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well I figure “stop saying this monstrously stupid thing you are saying” is more realistic than “Start thinking critically about your own opinions”.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well I figure “stop saying this monstrously stupid thing you are saying” is more realistic than “Start thinking critically about your own opinions”.

          • Jenny Higgs

            Judith – what was the judgement in Merck’s trial?

        • Chris

          Well that’s certainly a gish gallop if I’ve ever seen one.

      • Ron Roy

        See what hundreds of well credentialed vaccine critics have to say:http://whale.to/m/critics.html

        • Joseph

          It is taking a serious effort on my part to be civil. It’s especially hard given that I am old, evil, and I am suffering a death dealing headache.
          You posted from Whale. The kindest thing I’m going to say about them is this: They claim that the Holocaust did not happen, and that man never made a lunar landing.
          There are worse web sites around, but you would have to dig hard to find one.
          I won’t bother reading or rebutting any article from whale, but I can explain what other skeptics think about it.
          Here are some friendly critiques of that lying cesspit…
          http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/14/the-nuttiness-that-is-whaleto/
          http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whale.to

    • Lawrence McNamara

      Lots and lots of misinformation there – there are not “hundreds of thousands” of people who have suffered serious vaccine reactions….there have been a mere 3900 claims filed since 2006, versus over 2.5 Billion doses of vaccines given.

      That represents a safety profile better than just about any other product on the market today….

      And the existence of the NVICP is no “secret” as information about it is included on every single Vaccine Information Sheet, given out before every vaccine, by every single health care provided in the country.

      There is compensation available for serious vaccine reactions, there is no compensation for people who die or are crippled by vaccine-preventable diseases.

      Pharma companies are still liable – they pay an excise tax on every single vaccine they sell, plus they are still required to go through the multi-year (sometimes a decade or more) clinical trial process to get new vaccines approved.

      In fact, less than 7% of new vaccines are ever approved for use.

      • take the entire infant schedule adjusted for your body weight.

        Once, and only once, you have done that can you come back and claim they are safe. Until then we will just assume you are lying.

        “There is compensation available for serious vaccine reactions, there is no compensation for people who die or are crippled by vaccine-preventable diseases.”

        There is no such thing as a vaccine preventable disease and the standard of evidence required for injuries/deaths caused by so-called VPDs is vastly lower than that which is required for deaths caused by vaccines.

        For the former the only thing that is necessary is a loose temporal association. But for vaccine related injuries that is very rarely deemed sufficient.

        “Pharma companies are still liable – they pay an excise tax on every single vaccine they sell”

        Ummm, the vaccines are more or less mandatory and the governments subsidise them for the most part. This means that the economic burden falls entirely on the consumer/government. Pharma companies barely lose a cent as a result of this tax.

        Having said that, they do kind of pay a tax. They have to bribe lots of government officials with promises of nice cushy jobs for compliance. And they do this on a very regular basis in order to ensure that their products approved. They also pay media outlets to whip up people in a hysteria over various bugs so that government agencies will cave into public pressure to approve vaccines on virtually no evidence of efficacy or safety whatsoever.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Vaccines aren’t adjusted by weight.

          • Joseph

            How did I forget to send you a friends request, Lawrence? Remedying that now.

          • I know. If they were and adults got them on a regular basis (and presumably came out unscathed) then why would I bother asking people to do this?

            Think Lawrence! Think!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You only bother because you are completely ignorant of basic immunology. Vaccines aren’t adjusted for weight, because they don’t need to be – they work just as well for an infant as they do for an adult.

            If you even had half a brain and understood the science, you’d know that.

            Again, I’ll take the entire pediatric schedule, if you’ll expose yourself to every single disease we vaccinate against.

            In a few weeks, we’ll compare results.

            I’m game – are you?

          • No. Now go and take the vaccines or else I will continue to believe they are not safe.

          • Joseph

            Interesting. I have just gotten three, no, four vaccines.
            I took the flu shot in September, I had the shingles vaccine about two months ago, I had the pneumococcal vaccine at the same time as I had the shingles injection, and, oh yes, I managed to get a nice puncture wound so I had a Tetanus booster.
            I’m still here.
            So yeah, they’re safe.

          • That’s great. Now go and take them 100 times over and you will have gotten around the equivalent of what an infant goes through.

          • Joseph

            *shrugs* I had to play catchup a few years back.
            I got everything an infant gets and more.
            Didn’t seem to bother me. Of course you can say: An anecdote is not evidence, and you would be right.
            The thing is, we do this every day to millions, and we do NOT see millions of victims.
            We don’t see thousands, or hundreds of victims.
            The risks of taking your full immunization is about equal to the risk of being killed while driving to the supermarket and back.
            And where is your evidence (and I mean by evidence things that are real, such as might be found in a high impact, respected medical journal, or something that could convince a panel of medical experts, not including Adams, Mercola, Sears, Oz, or Burzynski. (You can have Dr. Carson, I don’t like his politics but his stance on medicine seems ok.)

          • Ron Roy

            Keep getting your flu vaccines and this is what you have to look forward too: According too Doctor Hugh Fudenberg who’s had over 800 papers published in peer review journals.”If an individual has had 5
            consecutive flu shots between 1970 – 1980 (the years of the study) his/her
            chance of developing Alzheimer’s Disease is 10 times greater than if they
            had 1, two or no shots.” When asked why, Dr. Fudenberg stated that
            it is due to the mercury and aluminum buildup that is in EVERY flu shot
            (and in almost all childhood shots). The gradual mercury and aluminum
            buildup in the brain causes cognitive dysfunction.

          • Joseph

            This guy? http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/fudenberg/1995order.shtml
            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2011/01/135-hugh-fudenberg.html
            I don’t think I’ll worry about one thing this guy has to say.
            This is proof that you can always find one BAD apple. Wakefield, Oz, Fudenberg, they’re of a piece. Lets toss Sears into the garbage heap with them.
            At one time he was a respectable physician, but he changed course in (I think) the 1980’s, and has since made an incredible number of impossible statements.
            The Wikipedia article on him notices that he was hired by Big Tobacco to do a hit piece on smoking and emphysema.

          • Ron Roy

            Fudenberg was the thirteenth most widely read biologist of his time. And try to find another scientist with 800 + papers published in peer review journals. His credentials were impeccable.

          • Joseph

            The man was an idiot.
            How many people read or believed him is not the point.
            He was a lying idiot. *shrugs*
            And you want me to believe him? I’m sorry, I am NOT an idiot. Old, yes. Evil? Yep. Helps me keep on breathing.
            Have a good day.

          • Ron Roy

            So when one one of the most respected scientist in the world exposes the truth he’s lying? you’ve confirmed my suspicions you’re a paid shill for the pharmaceutical industry. I’ve offered this challenge before with no takers. I challenge you to a public debate in my hometown. I’ll pay all your expenses and rent a hall that will accommodation 400 people. There’s one catch there will be a vote at the end of the debate, by show of hands, if you win you’ve had an all expense paid trip to the White Mountains of NH if you lose you reimburse me all expenses.

          • Joseph

            No, he wasn’t respected once it was realized he’d gone to the bad. *shrugs*
            And I’m sorry you respect him. Although given you’re in favor of dangerous infectious diseases over safe vaccines, that shouldn’t surprise me.

          • kfunk937

            And partnered with Wakefield, lest we forget.

            Although, for the Faithful&#8482, that’s a plus. Unfortunately.

          • Joseph

            I agree. His being in bed with Wakefield would be a positive thing for most of the people I’m arguing with here. That’s a pity.

          • Joseph

            I suffer from curiosity, you do NOT have to answer this. Figure it’s just me being nosy.
            Would you go to a hospital or an MD if you were ill, or would you prefer other treatments?

          • If you would like to use nuclear power to heat your home, does it logically follow you should be happy to have a fission bomb dropped on your house?

            It is perfectly acceptable to believe in one part of medicine but not another based on your own subjective evaluation of the evidence for each and its applicability in your situation.

            When it comes to disease I have zero faith in anything doctors do. When it comes to emergency medicine, orthopedics, plastic surgery there is a lot of good in what doctors do. There is a lot of bad in those things too but the key is that they are not *systematically* bad in the way disease treatment is.

            There is a good epistemic reason for the differentiation – the ability to know the counter-factual – but as I say in the nuclear power example above I don’t have to justify why I value one over the other.

          • Joseph

            Depends. If it got rid of some of my neighbors… I might be tempted. But more seriously, thank you for answering my question.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          But, I would be happy to get the entire pediatric schedule, if you also exposed yourself to every single disease that we vaccinate against…..then we can compare our results.

          Only fair, right?

          • So you are happy with us not believing they are safe.

            Good to know.

          • Joseph

            Your belief doesn’t matter in science.
            You can “believe the door is open” as hard as you want. If it isn’t open, you won’t get through it.
            Vaccines are safe.
            I don’t really need your beliefs to understand that. I trust the evidence that has been gathered for many years.
            It comes down to this: I have over a million studies showing that vaccines are safe, done by hundreds of thousands of researchers in every laboratory setting imaginable.
            You have, um, Jenny McCarthy? Andy (big fraud) Wakefield?
            I’m sorry, I’ll pit MY team against YOUR team any day of the week.

          • If our beliefs don’t matter then why do you guys bother with so much pro-vaccine propaganda?

            Just grab our children at gun point and forcibly inject them. Stop with the pretense that you aren’t evil fascists and just get on with the overt violence.

            “It comes down to this: I have over a million studies showing that vaccines are safe, done by hundreds of thousands of researchers in every laboratory setting imaginable.”

            And physicians had millions of articles showing that bloodletting was safe and effective. They practiced it for thousands of years so it must have been good right?

            And astrologers have millions of studies proving they are right too.

            And let’s not even mention the number of studies that have been done on the Bible.

            Vaccines couldn’t hold a candle to them.

            ‘I’m sorry, I’ll pit MY team against YOUR team any day of the week.”

            Yep. You are incapable of thinking for yourself and using facts and logic to support your position. For you it is 100 per cent about opinions. The important people agree with vaccines, ergo vaccines are good. Your thought processes don’t get any more sophisticated than that.

          • Joseph

            I’m capable of following evidence no matter where it leads me.
            If the evidence forces me to change my beliefs, I am able to do that. And that is NOT easy.
            Your claim that I’m incapable of independent thought seems to assume that if one changes his or her mind for reasons of evidence then that person is following the crowd, is a sheeple…
            If you didn’t hurt, maim, and kill people with your fraudulent claims you would be a GREAT comedian.

          • Ron Roy

            Studies conducted by the very companies that make the vaccines yeah I’m sure they can be trusted! Look at all the lawsuits generated from all the other pharmaceuticals on the market that were deemed SAFE. People in my small community, know I have been involved in fighting mandatory vaccinations for over 30 years and during the course of that time have reported hundreds of serious vaccine reactions, and some deaths, to me. I’ve even had people report reactions their pets have had. A doctors medical liability insurance is from $20,000 to over $100,000 per year to cover any lawsuits mostly from prescribing these safe pharmaceuticals. According to the AMA’s own statistics over 300,000 people a year die from mostly properly and improperly prescribed pharmaceuticals but vaccines are perfectly safe. Yeah right!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Again, not real data, merely stories. And studies are conducted by organizations all over the planet, including regulatory bodies in dozens of different countries.

          • Ron Roy

            Those regulatory bodies, as you call them, are bought and paid for by the very industries they’re supposed to regulate. Just like our FDA is bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Including countries which have no love at all for multi-national corporations or the US in general?

            Seriously, explain how that works, given that vaccines are less than a 30 Billion dollar a year industry (in total revenue, not profit).

          • Ron Roy

            If so little money is being made then why are they developing even more health destroying vaccines? Oh wait I’ve answered my own question. Health destroying = increasing the AMAs and pharmaceutical companies’ customer base. India is suing Bill and Melinda Gates personally, for the damage done to thousands, by the polio vaccine that they paid for and promoted.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.phrma.org/research/selected-vaccines-development

            Actually, only about 7% of current vaccines in development will ever get approved. Also, of the two hundred plus vaccines currently in the FDA clinical trial process, many of them are anti-cancer vaccines or vaccines to deal with HIV, or other diseases such as malaria, which is a scourge of the developing world.

            Seriously, get a grip.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Another lie about Bill Gates as well – the lawsuit was filed by private individuals, not the Indian Government….and by the way, how is that suit going?

          • Joseph

            If all the studies were done by the drug industry I’d say you had a point, but you missed it again.
            Universities, governments, all publish research.
            And let me make this clear…
            A scientist isn’t a robot wearing a lab coat. A researcher is, at the end of the day, human.
            I find it impossible to comprehend how as many people in as many different companies involved in vaccine manufacturing wouldn’t have at least some twinges of conscience. I’d expect to see thousands upon thousands screaming.
            Now, regarding your point about AMA statistics…
            An improperly prescribed drug is more dangerous than an improperly prescribed vaccine, and here is why…
            Vaccines are engineered to be safer than almost any other type of medication, AND I INCLUDE ASPIRIN.
            You only get one dose of a vaccine at one time. If you were prescribed the wrong medication you could take a high dose every day.

            Now as for your fight against mandatory vaccines.
            You are loosing, and I am pleased by that fact.
            It seems most people, like me, don’t like people like you, who they see as putting their family and their community at risk.
            I’d better sign off now.
            I can’t think of anything more disgusting than a 63 year old man gloating.
            Have a good day. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            Far from loosing the fact that vaccines are responsible for untold allergies, cancers, diabetes, fibromyalgia, and every nerve disease you can think of is spreading fast. And some doctors and scientists have and do speak out against vaccines but at the risk of losing their livelihood and some cases their lives. My daughter recently told a nurse that she was never vaccinated and the nurse responded: ”That’s a good thing”

          • Joseph

            Ok, now we have a claim you can prove.
            Show me good, sound, peer reviewed, unmistakable citations to back up your claims and ya know what?
            I’ll change my mind. I’ll have to.

            But be aware that you’re facing a high bar, because the current research is so much in support of immunization.

            But I’d be interested in seeing if you can support one of your claims with solid scientific evidence.

          • Ron Roy
          • Joseph

            That’s… That’s not even peer reviewed research.
            It’s a debunked claim about Gardasil that is, frankly, ancient. It’s been posted in a blog site, not any form of journal as well.
            Let me show you one of several posts that debunk it.
            http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/gardasil-researcher-against-vaccine-myth-debunked/

            I do not want rehashed lies.
            I want PEER REVIEWED RESEARCH that proves one of two possible scenarios: First, that vaccines in general DO NOT WORK.
            Second: That vaccines in general are more dangerous than the diseases they defeat.
            Peer reviewed meaning it has to have been published in a major, high impact medical journal, NOT BEEN RETRACTED for lies, like Wakefield and a few others I could mention have been, and has held up to the most robust scrutiny by other members of the research area.

          • Ron Roy

            I volunteer.

        • Joseph

          A vaccine doesn’t work like, say, asprin. What happens is simple: A vaccine contains a particle that the immune system can recognize. It doesn’t take many of these particles for the immune system to learn what it looks like and how to defeat it, and there is no difference in the mechanism between an infant or an adult.
          This means that one size DOES fit all. 🙂

          • Vaccines don’t work at all.

            But the challenge is purely about safety not efficacy.

            If you weren’t an imbecile you would have been able to work this one out for yourself.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Since vaccines aren’t adjusted for weight, your challenge is moot.

            Again, my challenge is much better – I’ll get the entire schedule, if you’ll expose yourself to the same diseases….then we compare.

            What are you, chicken?

          • Yes. A chicken who can plainly see that vaccines are not safe.

            Thanks for demonstrating that.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Wow, so you won’t prove that these diseases are nothing to worry about by exposing yourself to them?

            I guess this explains:

            https://reasonablehank.com/2015/11/24/tristan-wells-of-the-avn-calls-for-the-execution-of-vaccine-workers/

          • I never said these diseases were nothing to worry about. I said that vaccines don’t prevent them.

          • Joseph

            The evidence, historical and research both, the EVIDENCE says you are wrong.

          • Joseph

            No, not a chicken. I wouldn’t bother to call you a coward without good evidence.
            A disbeliever in good science, including biology? Certainly, you’ve given me that evidence.
            That is probably why you’re worried about immunizations.
            You don’t even come close to having an understanding of them other than the very basic “Things in needles must be bad.”
            That’s sad.

          • Joseph

            Funny…
            Why don’t we see smallpox these days? The claim is that vaccines have caused its extinction in the wild. So no more smallpox vaccines now.
            Why is polio becoming extinct?
            And here’s a SHOCKER for you: Once polio is extinct the vaccine will be WITHDRAWN, no longer made, not sold, gone.
            Or this: Measles disappeared from the US following the introduction of an effective vaccine with good scheduling. When people stopped vaccinating for measles, it came back with a vengeance.
            And you say vaccines don’t work?
            Why then does HISTORY show us otherwise?

          • Smallpox is called monkey pox/ severe chicken pox etc. It still exists and there are still positive lab results for it (for what that’s worth).

            And polio too has been renamed (GBS, TM, CP, MS, etc). Measles has been renamed roseola, fifth disease etc.

            All of that has been pointed out to you. Why do you make statements as though it hasn’t? Is it because you are a pathological liar?

          • Joseph

            Bearing in mind that you don’t accept any real science as a foundation for this discussion, what could we possibly share with each other?
            Sports are dead out, by the way.

          • Judith

            Herewith some vital statistics showing measles decline before vaccination.

            http://healthimpactnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/vac4.jpg

          • Joseph

            Pick another site.
            That one lies.

            I’m going to be as civil as a blinding headache allows here:
            Pick good sites for citations.
            I will laugh at anything from any known site with an anti vaccine agenda. (There are a lot of them.)
            This is a more accurate, realistic explanation of measles decline after the vaccine.
            http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/effectiveness/

            Here’s a good explanation of why I claim your anti vaccine website LIES.
            http://time.com/4213054/anti-vaxx-websites/?xid=fbshare

          • Ron Roy

            Your example of a good site is one that is funded by the very companies making or pushing vaccines. Those are not credible sites.

          • Joseph

            University web sites.
            Government web sites.
            Neither of those are controlled by “Big Pharma”, those are just examples.
            We can look at universities in China, for example. These guys don’t have to sweat big Pharma, so what do they do?
            They claim vaccines are safe and effective.
            Go figure.
            Who makes claims that they aren’t?
            There are a lot of sites on the internet making such claims, but 90%+ of such sites either have an online store, have connections to an online store, or link to other friend sites with online stores. And none of these online stores sell quality, safe merchandise.
            These are the guys who try to frighten people with lies.

            Now understand me.
            I want to frighten people, to terrify them, to horrify them.
            With the TRUTH.
            Measles kills directly. If it hits as an infant, watch out for SSPE down the road; a nasty way wild measles (and only wild measles, it’s been checked to the bone) kills.
            Polio?
            Want to be crippled for life? My neighbor in days gone by was.
            Want to die in an iron lung? My niece did.
            Want to see it vaccinated out of existence? Bill Gates and I do.

          • Ron Roy

            Universities are funded by pharmaceutical companies. The FDA receives a portion of it’s funding from pharmaceutical companies. The New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association as well as the Lancet a British Medical Journal all receive millions in advertising from drug companies. Google doctor Harvey Wiley and see for yourself the corruption in the FDA started more than 80 years ago. Less than 2% of the people diagnosed with polio had any residual paralysis. Doctor Klenner, North Carolina, cured hundreds of cases of polio and with NO residual paralysis by simply giving infusions of vitamin C. And this was before the vaccine came out.

          • Joseph

            So, um, Chinese and Russian universities are funded by US companies. Good to know.
            So much for that group of mistaken claims. Now on to the next.

            FDA corruption? That I could believe. Does it destroy the hard scientific evidence supporting vaccines?
            No. It doesn’t. The evidence wasn’t created by the FDA, it was created and reviewed by independent researchers.

            The thing CRIPPLING your understanding is your unwavering belief in conspiracy theories. It’s destroying any credibility you might otherwise have, and that’s a pity.

            You’re an intelligent human being who believes some frighteningly wrong things.

            Thank god you and your pro disease supporters are loosing this war. Thank god.

          • Ron Roy

            This is what Putin says about vaccines:http://www.healthy-beauty-team.com/putin-exposes-vaccines/

          • Joseph

            So…
            Now I should take medical advice from Putin?
            Excuse me, I’m going to laugh a bit.
            But be aware that it is very possible for a political leader to make junk statements about science.
            I point out that some of our current presidential candidates have the medical knowledge of a good sized rock.
            Because I did make the claim that Russian medicine supports vaccines, I think it fair to give some confirming links.
            https://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/181/Supplement_1/S220.full

            (This only mentions them in passing.)
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971213003585

            Their immunization calendar is very similar to ours. 🙂
            http://www.nap.edu/read/11382/chapter/19

          • Proponent

            “Oops, This Page Could Not Be Found!”

            … …

            Next?

          • Mike Stevens

            It will only be some antivax propaganda diatribe which mistakes mortality with incidence, anyhow.

            ….next, Judith?

          • Who cares? It was healthimpactnoise anyway. Nothing useful to see there.

          • Judith
          • Proponent

            ChildHealthSafefy?

            Really?

            After it has been pointed out that..

            “The “editor” of the site is an antivaccine lawyer.

            He started the site to provide “evidence” that vaccines were evil to help pimp his antivaccine cases in UK court.”

            … …

            First.. a 404’d link.. and now you are linking to someone’s website who has an obvious money driven agenda?

            Well done, Judith.

          • Judith

            So anyone who questions vaccines has a money driven agenda. How about the oft quoted Paul Offit for Profit guru for the pro vax organisation.

            Dr. Prophet received a supposed $350,000 grant from Merck to develop a rotavirus vaccine, and has served on the scientific advisory board for Merck. He received another estimated $6 million when CHOP sold the patent for the RotaTeq vaccine he developed. He was also on the CDC advisory board that approved the addition of a rotavirus vaccine to the US National Immunization Program (NIP) in 1998 very profitable for him.

            Rotavirus was removed from the market due to serious adverse events. It was replaced by RotaTeq and Offit continued to get royalty money from the sale of RotaTeq. Merck’s revenue from RotaTeq was $665 million in 2008 alone. Offit got a percentage of this.

            Offit received a $350 grant from Merck to develop RotaVirus vaccine, he shared a patent and therefore there is a strong conflict of interest. He also is paid by Merck to teach doctors that vaccines are safe.

            Both Rotarix- and Rotateq – current vaccines in use -have been found to be contaminated with pig viruses

            we should be happy though… the majority of “scientific literature” on the long term consequences of injecting our children with pig viruses revealed there is “no evidence” that pig viruses pose a risk to humans.

            Isn’t it amazing .. vaccines are true miracles .. no matter what they inject into innocent toddlers .. mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, pig viruses and pig DNA .. its all good.

          • Proponent

            Well.. you are free to take your medical cues and advice from a lawyer, Judith.

            I don’t.. and wouldn’t.

            … …

            Oh and I’ll just leave this here for any interested readers..

            Skeptical Raptor | “Debunking myths about Dr. Paul Offit MD”

          • Judith

            As I said I do not take my advice from Skeptical Craptor who is a pharma marketing guy who does not confirm which university he attended if any – so his education is pure heresay. As far as taking my medical cues and advice from a lawyer we have Doris Reiss Lawyer who is in your astroturf group giving pharma mis-information advice constantly…so double standards I think.

          • Proponent

            Judith: “As I said I do not take my advice from Skeptical Craptor who is a pharma marketing guy who does not confirm which university he attended if any – so his education is pure heresay.”

            First.. didn’t post the link to that article for your eyes, Judith. Why would you think that? Particularly, since I wrote.. “I’ll just leave this here for any interested readers”.

            That said.. I am glad that you brought up education.

            ‘Cause..

            Here are some more questions that you have evaded answering..

            “Judith, you cast aspersions on the opinions and expertise of others, and insist on knowing their degrees and qualifications (vide supra).
            In response, I asked for yours. You ignored that and asked where my medical degree was from. I told you, and asked again about yours.”

            “Your turn now…. What is your degree in, and where is it from?”

            … …

            Well?

          • Judith

            What is yours? I discuss on Disqus I don’t write articles meant as an authoritative source. I am here to debate. Nobody links to my writing. I choose to keep my life private but you link to Skeptor as an authoritative source – therefore his qualifications should be transparent.

          • Proponent

            Have you ever read or even looked at an article on Skeptical Raptor’s website, Judith?

            The answer has to be.. ‘no, no I haven’t’.

            ‘Cause..

            The articles are well-sourced and referenced. The research and evidence is clearly outlined.. and.. attributed.

            … …

            But, since I have you here.. and in case you miss it.. once more..

            Jonathan: “Judith – you have been shown MANY MANY TIMES that what you’re saying simply isn’t true. Study 018 compared the vaccine to a saline placebo for ALL adverse events.”

            Which begs the question.. why do you insist on reposting the same nonsense, Judith?

          • Judith

            Simple question have you ever read an article on Natural News website – answer no no I haven’t. I will do a deal I will read Cratptor’s
            propaganda if you read an article from Natural news.

          • Proponent

            Judith: “Simple question have you ever read an article on Natural News website – answer no no I haven’t.”

            Incorrect for me.. for you, however?

            I am thinking.. true.

            Citing a source that frequently cites itself to back up it’s own nonsense?

            That is (Un)Natural News in a nutshell.. absurd.

          • Mike Stevens

            What University did you attend then, Judith? And what is your degree in?
            You continually slag off Skeptical Raptor for not revealing his qualifications, so I ask again…what are yours?
            I have told you mine when you asked….Come on, don’t be shy.

          • Judith

            I do not reveal personal information as it is always used in a negative way by your crowd. I am only discussing on disqus not writing articles as SkepticalRaptor does which is taken as Gospel yourself and your pharma choir.

          • Proponent

            Judith: “I do not reveal personal information as it is always used in a negative way by your crowd.”

            Then stop asking for personal information.. hypocrite.

          • Mike Stevens

            1. When have I cited raptor?
            2. Why did you ask me where I qualified?

          • Mike Stevens

            “So anyone who questions vaccines has a money driven agenda.”

            No Judith, Proponent was indicating that Clifford Miller (who runs the Childhealth”Safety” website) is a UK lawyer who makes money from vaccine damage claims. It is therefore in his direct interest to create the impression that vaccines cause damage, and he uses his “anonymised” site to help him do so.

            I must also correct factual errors which you once again have posted in
            ignorance. Rotavirus vaccines are NOT injected, Judith, they are oral preparations.
            Some were found to be contaminated with fragments of porcine viruses which were incapable of causing any infection because they were merely fragments, and not whole, viable viruses. But even if they were whole viruses, why you think that their consumption in a few drops of vaccine rather than through natural ingestion of pork products should somehow be harmful is a complete mystery.

            Paul Offit has spent 30 years devoted to vaccine science and has helped invent life-saving rota vaccines that have already prevented hundreds of thousands of infant deaths in the developing and developed worlds. That he was rewarded financially for doing so is unsurprising. He no longer holds any vaccine patents.
            He also has donated all the profits from his books to autism research.

            Where have the profits gone from books by your antivaccine heroes, Judith, like Wakefraud and McCarthy? I’ll tell you…straight into their bank accounts (although I hear Wakefield hardly made a cent from his abysmal book)

            I also find it rather odd that just about every single person who has ever supported vaccination during the debates on Disqus has been accused of being a paid pharma shill by you antivaxers. One might wonder why you think that anyone who supports vaccines has a money driven agenda, no?

          • Sonja Henie

            Quit lying, Judith. Offit did not sit on the committee that approved the rotavirus vaccine. You’ve been told this many times before. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/debunking-myths-dr-paul-offit/

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Usual attempts at disinformation. Health impact news has zero credibility.

            404 for your link…..

          • Ron Roy

            The history of the smallpox vaccine, as told by the medical community, is a lie. In the early 1900s when we took over the Philippines militarily we forced all the inhabitants to receive as many as four or five doses of the small pox vaccine and only six years late they had a smallpox epidemic where the death rate was three time greater than normal. The same thing happened in Japan, Germany and England. As far as the polio vaccine it was contaminated with 40 microorganisms that didn’t belong in that vaccine. One of them was Simian Virus40 a cancer causing virus that is now part of our genome. Since less than 2% of all those diagnosed with polio had any residual paralysis cancer vs polio was a lousy trade off .Another consideration is that the epidemic was already on a sharp decline when they came out with the vaccine. Most diseases, with the exception of those caused by a nutritional deficiency, can be prevented or cured by the administration of vitamin C ( ascorbic acid ).

          • Judith

            It is interesting Ron – your point about the SV40 cancer causing virus will be ignored by the pharma choir because it is best left in silence.

          • Joseph

            No. I’m aware that for several years, and I would argue for too long, SV40 virus was in the polio vaccine.
            It can be excused at first, because when the contamination occurred we had no way to detect it.
            But yeah, you’re right. We took too long to get it out of the production line once we knew about it. That should have been a prosecutable event.
            It’s fortunate that we can prove there were no cases of human cancer ever caused by it. Let me show the evidence:
            This isn’t a journal paper, but it contains links to the original research, and that is why I am using it.
            You don’t need to believe HIM or me. Follow the links in the article to the rather dry original research.
            No cancer deaths, no cancer increase from SV40.
            http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/quashing-hollow-polio-vaccine-cancer-myth/

          • Judith

            Skeptical Craptor again. What is it about this guy (Michael Simpson) that thrills you guys so much. He loathes anything natural, and spends all his time peddling and hawking drugs and vaccines.

            Experience in medical sales hardly constitutes experience in medicine or in science. He refuses to state which university he went to which throws doubt if he has any qualifications at all.

            “I have over 25 years experience in marketing, business development, and product development in the medical products industry, working in a variety of marketing, sales, clinical research, and product development roles with large and small medical products companies. I have also had key executive roles on both the manufacturing and distribution sides of the medical products industry.” I did my post-graduate work in a multi-national pharmaceutical company.”

            Re: SV40 virus abundant evidence exists that it is oncogenic.

            The polyomavirus simian virus 40 (SV40) is a known oncogenic DNA virus which induces primary brain and bone cancers, malignant mesothelioma, and lymphomas in laboratory animals. Persuasive evidence now indicates that SV40 is causing infections in humans today and represents an emerging pathogen. A meta-analysis of molecular, pathological, and clinical data from 1,793 cancer patients indicates that there is a significant excess risk of SV40 associated with human primary brain cancers, primary bone cancers, malignant mesothelioma, and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Experimental data strongly suggest that SV40 may be functionally important in the development of some of those human malignancies. Therefore, the major types of tumors induced by SV40 in laboratory animals are the same as those human malignancies found to contain SV40 markers. The Institute of Medicine recently concluded that “the biological evidence is of moderate strength that SV40 exposure could lead to cancer in humans under natural conditions.” This review analyzes the accumulating data that indicate that SV40 is a pathogen which has a possible etiologic role in human malignancies. Future research directions are considered.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

            SV40 DNA has been detected in human tumours in numerous independent studies (2, 24), with the most commonly involved cancers being paediatric and adult brain tumours, mesotheliomas and osteosarcomas. Expression of T-ag, the SV40 oncoprotein, has been observed in some tumours. Recent studies using PCR and DNA sequence technologies have substantiated earlier reports dating from the mid-1970s of the presence of SV40 in human cancer tissue. Importantly, many of the SV40- positive tumours in recent studies have been from patients too young to have been exposed to SV40- contaminated poliovirus vaccines

            http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(2)195.pdf

          • Joseph

            I knew you would respond to him with dislike and distrust, much as I do to either whale or similar sites.
            That’s why I told you to follow his links to the original research. At the end of the day, the original research matters.

            I’m going to change subjects before I head off. I would like you to understand something I consider very important.
            I am aware that you and a few others are fighting against vaccines. I also know that you (or most of you, if not all) honestly believe you are doing the best thing for your families and your communities.

            Sadly, your beliefs are wrong. Facts trump beliefs, and the information we have about vaccines is sound, factual, and 100% supportive of immunization.
            That’s 1.
            For the second?
            You’re fighting as hard as you can. And still you are loosing. California? You lost. We can track other states and other countries doing the same thing that happened here.
            It seems that most people, the vast majority of people, know you are wrong.
            You’ve run out of time, history is going to sweep the anti vaccine movement aside.
            And I always come down on the side of history.

          • Judith

            Thanks Joseph – I know you genuinely believe that vaccines are good. You at least are able to do as you believe whereas those of us who do not wish to have toxic substances injected are coerced and punished. I believe that slowly people will turn away from them as the government is forced to become more transparent. There is a lot of undone science with vaccines and our children all over the world are getting sicker. There will be new sciences out there such as the micro biome and how it protects against many illnesses and diseases. There is the science of nutrition and herbs. We eventually will return to a more natural and healthy way of living.

            What is the effect of combining dozens of vaccine ingredients in our children’s developing immune systems in such a concentrated time-frame? no one knows. after almost 30 years of an increasingly aggressive vaccine schedule and scores of children developing autism and many other health issues, our health officials have not done studies of the combined effect of even 3 vaccines, let alone 8-13 that they can receive in one visit. All the studies about vaccines are only based on receiving one vaccine at a time.

            There have been no studies (apart from tiny ones with unvaccinated cohorts under 100) comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

          • Joseph

            Understand me now.
            Your stance and your beliefs are killing babies.
            Your arguments cause death and harm to innocents.
            That’s the simple truth.
            Don’t like it? Change your beliefs. Beliefs can change.
            Facts don’t.
            The facts on vaccines are clear and completely support immunization.
            Every person YOU convince not to vaccinate puts his family at risk and weakens the vital herd protection we all rely on. (And yes, that works, and I don’t care what lies you spout to argue against it.)

            Measles is still killing fourteen children per HOUR world wide, if my memory serves.
            Vaccines aren’t killing anybody, your claims to the contrary.

            I don’t hate you, but I hate this forsaken belief of yours and I will do whatever I can to mitigate the harm and the pain you are causing.

          • Ron Roy

            The Helen Keller Foundation simply gives people in third world countries vitamin A to prevent or ameliorate measles. Most diseases can be prevented with good nutrition and vitamin mineral supplements. The human body is made to take care of itself providing we give it the necessary nutrients.

          • Joseph

            No. Vitamin A deficiency can kill or cause blindness, I am glad they’re doing this.
            It doesn’t have any impact on measles, which is still killing children.

            I am SO glad the laws are changing to favor mandating vaccines. I would enjoy seeing this go world wide, I expect to see it in most states in the union within the next five to ten years.

            One final thing: Because your stance kills infants, I am not going to stop fighting your lies with the truth.
            Have a pleasant day.
            (I just read of an unimmunized toddler who died of Diphtheria in Antwerp. Diphtheria? Oh god, that’s a hellish way to die, and so easily prevented. It has soured my mood.)

          • Judith

            Sadly Joseph it is not always the lack of a vaccine this is killing infants but the vaccines also:

            At least three newborns have died and another two dozen are reacting poorly after a round of hepatitis B vaccinations last week at Bago General …

            http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/yangon/19497-babies-struggling-after-vaccines.html

            GlaxoSmithKline Argentina Laboratories Company was fined 400,000 pesos by Judge Marcelo Aguinsky following a report issued by the National Administration of Medicine, Food and Technology (ANMAT in Spanish) for irregularities during lab vaccine trials conducted between 2007 and 2008 that allegedly killed 14 babies.

            Likewise, two doctors -Héctor Abate, and Miguel Tregnaghi- were fined 300,000 pesos each for irregularities during the studies.

            http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/88922/gsk-lab-fined-over-vaccine-tests-that-killed-14–babies

            Pune: As many as 11 babies died in the state last year after immunization as against eight infants in 2014. In the last five years, about 76 infants have died after being vaccinated in Maharashtra.

            http://health.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/pune-post-vaccination-11-infants-died-in-maharashtra/50603567

            Two children died on Tuesday and seven others were hospitalised in serious condition after receiving measles vaccinations in Kerio Valley, Elgeyo-Marakwet County.

            Hundreds of other children who received the immunisation have been recalled to medical centres in the county.

            Health authorities desperately recalled the children who had been immunised for immediate observation, with the seven said to be in critical condition after falling ill soon after the botched jabs.

            http://www.nation.co.ke/counties/Marakwet-Two-children-die-after-measles-vaccination/-/1107872/2863036/-/10paefr/-/index.html

            http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/un-vaccine-mistake-killed-syrian-children-2014101192556950498.html

            15 children died after being given measles vaccine – human error.

            http://www.dawn.com/news/1109916/two-more-children-killed-due-to-anti-measles-vaccine – the incidence is now 7 dead.

            SWABI: Up to 70 children of a local school were hospitalised after being administered anti-measles vaccine here on Thursday. The children complained that they felt severe abdominal pain after the immunisation, local sources said.

            The incident occurred in native district of Health Minister Shahram Khan Tarakai. Soon after the vaccination, the sources said, the children at the Working Folks Grammar School of Gadoon Amazai Industrial Estate started complaining about severe abdominal pain. The teachers said more children started developing signs of disturbance gradually and their number reached 70 later on. All of them were taken to the Topi Civil Hospital.

            http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-253071-70-children-hospitalised-after-anti-measles-immunisation-in-Swabi

            http://www.nation.com.pk/national/25-May-2014/immunisation-sends-60-to-hospital

            SWAT – Sixty schoolchildren fell seriously ill on Saturday after being administered measles vaccine by officials in Swat district of KP.

            According to reports, government health workers visited a school and dosed at least 60 schoolchildren with measles vaccine. Students fell unconscious and were shifted to Sadu Sharif hospital. “All children were treated at the emergency ward. We don’t know anything about the vaccine they were given,” said medics. Over 50 kids were admitted to hospital after immunisation in Swat region, where health authorities are already struggling to remove misconceptions about polio vaccination. Earlier in July 2012, expired measles vaccine claimed three lives in Swat district .

            Mexico’s public health system has suspended infant vaccines and mounted an investigation after two babies died and 29 were sickened in an impoverished community in southern Mexico.

            The Mexican Institute for Social Security says six of the 29 babies are in grave condition after receiving vaccinations for tuberculosis, rotovirus and Hepatitis B. The cause of the adverse reactions is not known, the institute said Sunday.

            The institute said it stopped vaccines nationwide on Saturday as a precaution.

            Rev. Marcelo Perez, a Roman Catholic priest, told The Associated Press that families of the babies said they became sick within hours. The adverse reactions started Friday and the babies were taken to a hospital in Simojovel, Chiapas, where 93 percent of the people live in poverty, according to government statistics.

            http://www.bnd.com/news/article20640384.html

          • Mike Stevens

            You don’t understand once again Judith… or is your ignorance deliberate?

            The 14 kids who died in this study were in the control arm – they never got the active trial vaccine!

            The fines were the result of irregularities in the consenting process.

          • AutismDadd

            Did they get the aluminum vaccine?

          • Joseph

            To be blunt: You’re pointing out problems that don’t make it into the field. Show me the deaths you claim.
            Oh, I forgot, you can’t. They don’t exist.

            I can show you MINE.
            Measles deaths in 2000: 562,000. SSPE not included.
            Due to vaccinations, deaths in 2012 reached a record low: 122,000. It is reliably estimated that the vaccine saved 13.8 million deaths.
            My source: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/notes/2014/measles-20140206/en/

            Now do me a favor: Until you can PROVE with reliable, sound citations that vaccines either don’t work, or are dangerous, find another person to “argue” with. I’ll cut you down hard, I am no longer in a good mood.

            I just read that the pro disease groups YOU represent killed another baby. Diphtheria, in Antwerp.
            That’s an ugly way to die.

          • Mike Stevens

            In poor resource countries with malnutrition and vitamin deficiencies, measles mortality is usually very high, but can be mitigated slightly by supplementing with Vitamin A. That is true.
            However, even in those settings, measles can be completely prevented with measles vaccination.

            I never understand how antivaxers would prefer a child to get a disease on the understanding that there is a supplement that might help a small minority of them, rather than completely prevent the illness in the first place.

            But then they aren’t very coherent when it comes to logic and comprehension.

          • Joseph

            Mike, it is so refreshing here to talk to somebody who knows these two facts: Immunization works as intended, it saves lives. And the second fact, the anti vaccine groups are dangerous. If the members of such groups were truly unintelligent, we’d be better off, but some are quite bright. Badly mistaken; in love with conspiracies, and Dunning Kruger fodder to say the least, but intelligent.

          • Judith

            Joseph measles will not be eliminated in the third world because of poor nutrition, poor hygiene. Also they do not laboratory test measles and there are many illnesses that mimic the disease. The measles vaccine itself has a poor level of protection. The more malnourished a child the less effective the vaccine.

            http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/

            A limited measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated US boarding school.

            Yeung LF, et al. Pediatrics. 2005

            Secondary measles vaccine failures identified by measurement of IgG avidity: high occurrence among teenagers vaccinated at a young age.

            Paunio M, et al. Epidemiol Infect. 2000

            A school-based measles outbreak: the effect of a selective revaccination policy and risk factors for vaccine failure.

            Hutchins SS, et al. Am J Epidemiol. 1990

            Outbreak of measles in a highly vaccinated secondary school population.

            Sutcliffe PA, et al. CMAJ. 1996

            Measles outbreak in 31 schools: risk factors for vaccine failure and evaluation of a selective revaccination strategy.

            Yuan L, et al. CMAJ. 1994

            An explosive point-source measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population. Modes of transmission and risk factors for disease.

            Chen RT, et al. Am J Epidemiol. 1989

            A measles outbreak at a college with a prematriculation immunization requirement.

            Hersh BS, et al. Am J Public Health. 1991

            Measles outbreak traced to fully vaccinated patient

            http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/04/measles-outbreak-traced-fully-vaccinated-patient-first-time

          • Joseph

            Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
            Smallpox vanished in 1970 or so worldwide. Is THAT when everybody got hygiene and nutrition?
            Polio is eliminated in Nigeria now. I GUESS they suddenly got good nutrition and hygiene.
            We had measles until the vaccine came along, then suddenly they went away. I guess that’s when we got hygiene and good nutrition.
            Except we got a good polio vaccine first, and polio vanished BEFORE our hygiene and nutrition improved removed measles.
            You want to tell me that the visible, provable collapse in disease rates
            for these three illness that happened at different points in time were
            all due to “Hygiene”?
            (And don’t even bother pointing out that the mortality rate was falling due to better medical science. I -know- that. Mortality rates from a disease are NOT the same as incidence rates, and I know the difference. Vaccines lowered the incidence rate to the vanishing point. Nothing else did.)
            Vaccines kill diseases.
            Smallpox? Gone forever. Vaccines.
            Polio? Almost extinct.
            You want to get rid of vaccines? Well, you IDIOT, SO DO I! Let them do their JOB. Let them make the infectious horror they prevent vanish, become extinct.
            We don’t vaccinate for smallpox nowadays.
            Very shortly, when polio is declared extinct, we will drop that vaccine like a hot rock.
            We COULD do the same with measles IF YOU WOULD LET US. Instead, you’re taking a stance that promotes disease and suffering.
            Just please get smart. Just PLEASE show your intelligence and admit you have been a fool.

          • Ron Roy

            One size doesn’t fit all and besides the virus in the vaccine one has to consider all the other harmful toxic ingredients in a vaccine. Give a month old baby a few ounces of alcohol and it could possibly die whereas an adult would not. According to the EPA the amount of mercury According to the EPA’s guidelines a person would have to weight 550lbs for the amount of mercury in just one flu vaccine to be considered safe.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Untrue – since pediatric vaccines don’t contain “mercury.” Neither do they contain Thimerosal.

          • Ron Roy

            True they have removed the mercury in most vaccines but that’s only been for the last four or five years. The damage done, because of the mercury in many vaccines, in all those preceding years is incalculable. I used mercury as one small example of ALL the toxic chemicals in vaccines.

            So
            you think vaccinating kids is a good thing that means you approve of having kids
            injected with horse blood, rabbit brain,dog kidney,monkey kidney, chick
            embryo,chicken egg protein, duck egg, pigs blood, calf and fetal bovine serum,
            tissue from aborted fetuses and the DNA that it contains, aluminum, thimerosol (
            a form of mercury ), squaline,( which has not been approved by the FDA and is
            the leading cause of Gulf War Syndrome), peanut oil, glycerin, MSG, phenol,
            polysorbate 80, streptomycin, formaldehyde, sodium borate,canine kidney cells,
            oh last but not least Simian Virus 40 which contaminated the original polio
            vaccine. Simian Virus 40 is a cancer causing virus and that was the 40th virus
            they found in that vaccine! Most cancerous brain tumors are caused by SV40. That
            virus is now part of our genome and there’s no way to get rid of it! If there are no problems associated with vaccines, then why did
            Congress pass the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986? The reason is
            because Pharmaceutical companies were being sued so much, because of all the
            deaths and injuries caused by vaccines, that they would have to stop making
            vaccines so they “convinced ( bribed ) Congress into passing a law whereby the
            government accepts the liability! One of my best friends was a practicing
            microbiologist for 32 years and he admitted that our bodies don’t just produce
            antibodies against the viruses in the vaccine but also the ingredients in the
            vaccine. Gee I wonder where all the allergies are coming from? The greatest
            killer of pre-teens is leukemia I wonder what causes that? etc.etc. If you
            believe vaccines are beneficial find a doctor who will publicly debate me on the
            issue. Good Luck with that.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccine-myths-debunked/

            http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/tp/Anti-Vaccine-Myths-and-Misinformation.htm

            http://mic.com/articles/85725/7-biggest-lies-spread-by-the-anti-vaccine-movement-debunked-by-science#.4mbUKqiQ1

            And the list goes on and on – really nothing you’ve posted there is actually true.

            Just the thing about thimerosal – it was phased out beginning in 1999 & by 2001 it was nearly impossible to find vaccines that contained it anymore (in fact, CDC researchers doing studies on Thimerosal-containing vaccines had to canvas the entire country to find enough samples to use).

            So no, it wasn’t 4 or 5 years ago, it has nearly been 15 years.

            Seriously, crack open a real book, because you know nothing.

          • Ron Roy

            Nothing I’ve posted here is actually true? Really? And you believe the medical / pharmaceutical industry! PT Barnum was right ” There’s a sucker born every minute. And for your information I’ve read many books on anatomy, physiology, microbiology, kinesiology etc.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Obviously you didn’t understand what you read.

          • Ron Roy

            I did more than read I studied. Oh did I forget to mention one of my tutors was a practicing microbiologist with 32 years of experience in making vaccines, at the Walter Reed Hospital complex, against germs that could be used in biological warfare. This man also worked for the World Health Organization all over the Mideast. He has a Masters degree in microbiology and an honorary Doctorates degree for the work he did. he is also a lieutenant colonel.He should have been a full colonel but the military punished him when he started questioning the efficacy and safety of vaccines. He admitted that his co-workers didn’t dare question anything about vaccines for fear of getting into trouble with their superiors. He admitted that while working for the WHO he never got to see the bad results of vaccinations because after he vaccinated hundreds he would be sent to another area. To make a long story short he is now 100% against vaccinations.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            So, no real evidence then….

          • kfunk937

            Plus, unless I miss my guess, his “tutor” is this guy, who appears to have a solid scientific publication history, none of which gives a hint of a whiff of support for Ron’s contentions. I suspect (a) that Ron’s not a great student, and (b) that his “tutor” may’ve been simply being polite (or blowing him off) when Ron asked if any of his nonsense ideas were possible. Mind you, not even plausible, ’cause that would likely have been rejected outright. Based on some of the earlier work, I also suspect Ron’s an adherent of the demyelination camp of autism aetiology, an idea discarded after bearing no fruit over a decade ago. But, I could be wrong.

            (NB: I also doubt that the “tutor” recognises the relationship in the same way, which by its result seems to have been somewhat casual. Maybe they were neighbours or relatives or some such. I know how deucedly tiresome it is to argue socially with those who’ve fixed ideas.)

          • Ron Roy

            You’re wrong mercury was still in most vaccines as of 5 years ago and the Tetanus, Meningococcal and most flu vaccine still contain mercury.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope…..not even close.

            Also, the Meningoccal Vaccine is not on the US Pediatric schedule.

            And more than 75% of US flu shots don’t contain Thimerosal – and pediatric flu shots, including FluMist, don’t have any at all.

          • Ron Roy

            You’re wrong again.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Actually, I’m not wrong – because I just provided you with the evidence that proves you are.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Oh, I just noticed that the new 2016 schedule does include the Meningitis Vaccine….but guess what, it doesn’t contain Thimerosal either.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • Lawrence McNamara
          • Joseph

            In most medications, I’ll agree.
            Because of how vaccines work (and this has been explained in this thread earlier, I won’t cover the ground again), one dose is appropriate for both infants and older individuals.
            Toxins, now, an interesting subject.
            Here are items that are deadly when you have to much.
            Plutonium, of course.
            Oxygen. (Ever ask why divers don’t carry pure oxygen on deep dives? The answer is it is deadly at that pressure and concentration.)
            Water. (Not from drowning. You can die from overhydration, do a search. They check sports now to make sure athletes aren’t drinking too much water.)
            Crocodiles. (Ok, I had to put that one in. Bad sense of humor.)
            Things that aren’t dangerous in small amounts:
            Plutonium. (Turns out a LOT of people in Nevada were contaminated with trace amounts of plutonium, it’s in there bones and, amazingly, isn’t doing any harm at all. Who’d guess?)
            Alcohol, the type you drink. Of course too much is lethal, but that’s true of anything.
            Oxygen.
            Water.

            You’re not a fool. Do you see where I’m going here?
            There are things in a vaccine that would be lethal in large amounts. No question.
            In the amounts found in an immunization they are harmless.
            Formaldehyde? Ugly name, but we put out the same chemicals as part of cellular activity and our body can handle the tiny bit extra in a vaccine just fine.
            Aluminum? There’s more of it in mothers milk or an antacid tablet.
            Oh! This is interesting. Aluminum may be changed over for a natural shellfish extract in the future. Current research is promising!
            Well, hope you enjoyed my somewhat rambling post.
            I should NOT sleep and text, no question. 🙂 Have a good day.

        • VikingAPRNCNP

          You are a liar and willfully ignorant.

      • Joseph

        The cost of creating a potential vaccine is quite literally millions of dollars. When you realize that 93% don’t get to market, and realize the amount that it costs to store and transport them (a vaccine is the very definition of perishable) you start to realize that the drug companies make no money from them.

        In addition, the only things associated with immunization that has ever been shown by good research (other than immunity to a certain disease) is a DROP in the death risk for 3 years or so after immunization. That means, that you are less likely to die after being vaccinated. The cause is unknown.

        So vaccines are a loss leader. When compared to what a major pandemic would create they are a pittance to the drug firms.

        • Judith

          Vaccines are a huge profit making machine

          Merck ($MRK), the 2013 vaccines sales leader with $5.77 billion in revenue, was able to grow sales to $6.25 billion last year and land in the No. 1 spot in 2014, enjoying increased sales of Gardasil, the second best-selling vaccine worldwide. With growth for the year at 8%, Merck was just able to hold off the oncoming Sanofi ($SNY).

          For the year, Sanofi charted 7% vaccines growth and landed in the No. 2 spot with $5.85 billion in sales. For the Paris-based company, the upcoming focus is on its decades-in-production dengue vaccine, expected to be launched in 20 countries by the end of the year. But it also has several other irons in the fire, including a joint venture in Europe with Merck in which it’ll garner 50% of sales from Gardasil 9 there.

          GlaxoSmithKline ($GSK) delivered $5.26 billion in sales in 2014 to land it in the No. 3 spot in 2014. It recently completed a multibillion-dollar asset swap with Novartis that saw it pick up most of the Swiss pharma’s vaccines stall as it establishes a full-court press on vaccines; EP predicts GSK to remain the No. 3 player in 2020 with $7.34 billion in sales, charting 6% growth for the period.

          Pfizer’s ($PFE) 13% growth from 2013 revenue of $3.97 billion to 2014 sales of $4.48 billion was just one indicator of a transformative year for the New York-based pharma’s vaccines unit. Before announcing in July it’s taking a “comprehensive” approach to the field, it began an acquisition spree and continued development on internal candidates in an effort to diversify beyond the world’s best selling vaccine, Prevnar 13. The fact that it grew that shot’s sales in the U.S. 33% for the year didn’t hurt its case, either.

          As mentioned, Novartis ($NVS) agreed to hive off its vaccines assets last year in a move away from the field. The No. 5 player in 2014 with $1.53 billion in sales recently completed its final vaccines divestiture, selling its flu vaccines business to CSL in a move that cements its departure from vaccines.

          • Joseph

            I assume you’re intelligent.
            How is it that you get things so WRONG?
            This will explain the finances of vaccine manufacturing far better than I could. I hope it helps you understand that the conspiracy you believe in isn’t real, could never BE real, and doesn’t need to be feared.

            This is intended as humor, by the way, but it’s very accurate in so many ways.
            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:Big_Pharma_is_funding_the_Anti-vaccine_movement

          • Proponent

            Judith: “Vaccines are a huge profit making machine”

            Nope.

            Just some big ‘financial’ numbers impressing small minds.

            And then, there is this..

            “In the U.S., a study looking at the benefits of vaccination between 1994 and 2013 estimated a net savings of $295 billion in direct costs and $1.38 trillion in total societal costs. Looking at the last 50 years of the vaccine market, it’s absurd to think profits could have ever been the sole motivation of vaccine production. In fact, 83 percent of Americans believe that the MMR vaccine is safe. Profits from vaccine production aren’t a valid argument against vaccinations—the most important question is whether vaccines are safe and effective, and the answer is unambiguously yes.”

            (Source: The Atlantic | “Vaccines Are Profitable, So What?” )

          • Judith

            The estimated “net savings” is pure speculation and balloon blowing.

          • Proponent

            Ahh, so you’ve read the study (and the article, of course).

            Good.

            Ok, then.. what are the exact problems and limitations with it?

          • Judith

            Estimations are just that – no one knows how many diseases vaccines prevented because it is pure speculation only

          • Proponent

            Well.. allow me to be more direct with this next question, then..

            Did you read the study/report?

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Its a pretty simple mathematical model.

            1960 400 deaths per year from measles.

            2014- 1 measles death from the Disneyland outbreak.

            Us population has just about doubled since 1960.

            If measles deaths had grown at the rate of population growth we would expect about 800 deaths. (Not an unrealistic assumption as measles has a known 93% infectivity rate..)

            That is a 99.99% decrease in vaccine preventable measles deaths.

            Last year about 115000 children died from measles. 13 children die every hour on average. 51 children are alive because they were vaccinated.

            That drop in deaths since 2000 by increasing 1 dose Mmr coverage from 73% to 85%.

            An increase to 95% first dose coverage would probably translate to an almost zero death rate.

            Death rate almost assuredly would be zero with 95% 2 dose coverage.

            Estimates derived from who data.

            Its not that difficult to arrive at reasonably estimates using population data.

          • AutismDadd

            Didn’t you hear, vaccines prove you can prove a negative AND that correlation IS causation. Isn’t science grand??

          • Judith

            So true Autism Dad – suddenly correlation is causation how wonderful..

          • Jonathan Graham

            vaccines prove you can prove a negative

            No having more than 4th grade math tells you that. For example I can prove that there are no integer solutions to 2x = 1.

            correlation IS causation

            Nobody is saying that but rather that correlation is evidence of causation. The problem with most of the vaccine critical folk is their evidence is of exceptionally low quality.

          • AutismDadd

            Says the guy with zero credibility.

          • Jonathan Graham

            It’s so cute when you’re all butthurt. Nothing I’ve said requires you to trust me. So your comment here, as much of what you say on Disqus is irrelevant. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Give me your address I’ll UPS a box of tissue.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Keep ’em since you’re the one doing all the crying.

          • AutismDadd

            You sure, I can send pink ones.

          • AutismDadd

            Butthurt

          • AutismDadd

            You should double ban me from your site too.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Sorry you’re cheesed about that but you were given plenty of leeway to demonstrate that you would meet your own definition of making a significant contribution.

          • AutismDadd

            like I care Dubya!

          • suz norkan

            Graham’s just holding out for the extra absorbent crying towels! 😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            Estimations are just that – no one knows how many diseases vaccines prevented because it is pure speculation only

            What? So when I estimate that the value for 1/sqrt(2) is between .6 and .9. Is that pure speculation? There is no possibility that what I’ve said is true? There is equal probability that ANY OTHER VALUE is correct? Of course not, clearly estimations can be absolutely perfectly correct. Estimations can be derived from many places known figures, reasonable assumptions, other bounded likelihoods.

            If you want to criticize the actual study in question then you need to provide something more than dismissing a figure because your assume that “estimation” is ever and always equivalent to “guessing with no limit to error”.

          • Sonja Henie

            “I wonder how many times we will have to correct you on this before you adopt it into your narrative.”

            Forever and ever, Amen.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well she has just admitted that there was a saline trial for gardasil (without responding to me directly or admitting she was wrong and spewing BS for ages). So who knows what other miracles are possible.

          • Judith

            The Big companies are worried though Proponent and are looking at ways to cozy up and influence health workers to bring in the profits and get the $$$ rolling:

            Gardasil, the darling of Merck’s ($MRK) vaccines unit, has proved a valuable moneymaker, hauling in $2.17 billion worldwide last year to rank second on the world’s best-selling vaccines list. But lagging U.S. vaccination rates against human papillomavirus (HPV), for which the jab is intended, are preventing the shot from achieving its bigger sales potential.

            You can bet the company’s marketing gurus paid attention to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention last month when the agency announced that vaccination rates among adolescent girls and boys against HPV remain well below target levels–57% of adolescent girls and 35% of adolescent boys received one or more doses of HPV vaccine in 2013. That trails behind the 86% of children in the same age group that received the tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis vaccine.

            So what’s the pharma giant doing about it?

            In an interview, a Merck spokesperson said the company is trying to get cozier with healthcare professionals, consumers and the broader public health community to raise awareness about how vaccination can guard against certain cancers and other HPV-related diseases.

            “Our efforts include medical education for healthcare providers, print advertising, in-office media, and patient education materials, with additional programs to help ensure individuals receive all three recommended doses of Gardasil,” a Merck representative said.

            The CDC numbers do have a bright spot, though. From 2012 to 2013, there was a slight uptick in HPV vaccination rates among girls and boys aged 13 to 17. And while still lower than vaccination rates in girls, rates of boys getting two and three doses of the HPV jab nearly doubled from the year before.

            A McKinsey & Co. analysis earlier this year shed light on the secrets of successful drug launches, labeling Gardasil as a “category creator,” meaning that Merck needed to do a lot of upfront work to convince doctors and parents that its vaccine served some kind of unmet need. About 15% of drug launches are so-called category creators, which are typically drugs that break out into uncharted market territory.

            http://www.fiercepharmamarketing.com/story/theres-room-more-parents-docs-mercks-gardasil-bandwagon/2014-08-12?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal&mrkid=%7B%7Blead.Id%7D%7D&mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRokuK7Jcu%2FhmjTEU5z16uouWqaxgZ141El3fuXBP2XqjvpVQcRhNrrGRw8FHZNpywVWM8TILtkUt9hsLQziDW0%3D

          • AutismDadd

            Is that MERCK, the company synonymous with consumer deaths and maker of the miracle pain killer VIOXX? Pain Killer is right, many never felt pain again.

          • AutismDadd

            Yep its about cost cutting measures in such VAST amounts, a few hundred thousand butchered kids is a drop in the bucket. Pay them some compensation to kiss them off and construct narrow definitions of what constitutes a vaccine injury. Another way to cut costs.

          • AutismDadd

            I’ve read overall the vaccine industry creates 27 billion in direct and indirect business ventures.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Citation please.

          • AutismDadd

            Google it stupid.

        • AutismDadd

          Correlation is not causation unless you are pushing product.

          • Joseph

            I know that correlation is not causation. I’m only pushing good health and sound science here. (I’m mocking the stupidity for free, it’s always good entertainment.) Your statement is correct, but I never made a correlation = causation claim about vaccines.
            Reread what I said. Or here, let me clarify…
            I pointed out that after vaccinations the death rate went down. That happens to be a proven fact. I also noted that the cause was UNKNOWN. (Reread my comment.) I suspect it’s possible that people who get vaccines are more able to afford better health care, or are more concerned with their health care and hence are less at risk.
            Do I think that vaccines caused this benefit?
            No. I honestly don’t.
            I used this as a tactic to slap down the argument that vaccines cause disease and death. If they did, we would expect the death rate to go UP following an immunization. Since we can say with confidence that death rates go down following immunization, we weaken that argument a LOT.
            If you want to make claims that I say X when I say Y, we’re gonna spend a LOT of time talking past each other. *shrugs*

      • Ron Roy

        Vaccine damage is vastly unreported: http://www.whale.to/vaccines/ploy1.html and read what a few hundred honest doctors and researchers, who have risked their livelihoods by telling the truth, have to say about vaccines: http://whale.to/m/critics.html

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Using “Whale.to” as a reference? Seriously?

          I guess you also believe in the Illuminati & telepathic dolphins too, right?

          The worst kind of garbage…too funny.

          • Judith

            Whale doesn’t fall into the accepted category of vaccine pushers so you go into the woo woo aspersions and insults.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            It is run by a holocaust denier….that’s all you need to know.

          • Judith

            You should also consider pharmaceutical companies past antics

            IG Farben was the only German company in the Third Reich that ran its own concentration camp. At least 30.000 slave workers died in this camp; a lot more were deported to the gas chambers. It was no coincidence that IG Farben built their giant new plant in Auschwitz, since the workforce they used (altogether about 300.000 people) was practically for free. The Zyklon B gas, which killed millions of Jews, Gypsies and other people was produced by IG Farben´s subsidiary company Degesch.

            In Germany a growing number of people do not understand that IG Farben´s successors Bayer, BASF and Hoechst still refuse to apologize for their misdeeds. It is hard to accept that after the war the companies were allowed to keep IG Farben´s entire property, whereas the surviving slave workers received nothing. Until today Bayer, BASF and Hoechst did not pay any wages to their former workers.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            What does that have to do with vaccines?

            Nothing.

          • Judith

            What has accusing someone of being a holocaust denier have to do with vaccines?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Not accusing. He is.

          • sabelmouse

            i understand that. i don’t understand why the ex colonials and slavers get away with not even appologising, let alone paying reparations.

          • Joseph

            Read my rebuttal to Whale.
            In brief: Whale claims the holocaust never happened, that man never landed on the moon, and so on.
            You might have to dig to find it, I won’t repeat it here.

      • AutismDadd

        3900 who were compensated, not reported. Most are ignored and denied.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Lots were “reported,” hence VAERS…only a vanishingly small number were ever linked to a vaccine.

          Sorry, but autism isn’t a side effect.

          • AutismDadd

            Great news for Dummies right? VAERS a useless, toothless con which does exactly what it was meant to do, appear to be legitimate but in reality it controls both the information and the message. With its blanket disclaimer, any and all reports are worthless. NVICP is not better. It pacifies some, shuns others. The OFFICIAL WORD denies at least 60% of claims. Narrow definitions lead to small numbers of victims, which supports the Official lies about safety. Remove the largest, most severe, autism but include headache.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You had your chance with the Omnibus Hearing….and failed miserably.

          • AutismDadd

            It was rigged. So were the 2 congressional hearings. They were only done to pacify parents and pretend to care.

          • John Hancock

            Lol. You delusional nitwit.

          • AutismDadd

            Why follow me? That’s offensive.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And no, the reports aren’t worthless, because it was VAERS reports which led to the removal of the first Rotavirus vaccine from the market.

          • AutismDadd

            What? an UNSAFE VACCINE? How horrible were the injuries?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            They found 1 (one) additional case of a potential serious adverse reaction, per 100,000 doses – which was enough to pull the vaccine from the market.

            So, in this case, VAERS was a very good tool to find this very small increase in reactions.

          • AutismDadd

            Get real.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4843a5.htm

            Fine, don’t believe me. But it’s what really happened.

          • AutismDadd

            Ask someone who cares.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Of course, this, again, typifies the anti-vax mindset.

            They don’t care about facts or evidence.

            Thanks for confirming.

          • AutismDadd

            You’re the anti-vac listing studies showing serious issues they cause. So how’s your Messiah Wakefield and the cult queen McCarthy doing?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            What?

            Have you suffered a stroke, by chance?

          • AutismDadd

            Truth hurt?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, you’ve just lost coherence entirely, so I was wondering if you had suffered a stroke which affected your faculties.

          • AutismDadd

            Aren’t you nice? Sorry I’m married.

          • suz norkan

            Dadburnit, Adadd!

            p.s. I LOVE your disqus profile! 😉

          • AutismDadd

            Thank you.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094741/

            Here is an even better summary of why the first Rotavirus vaccine was withdrawn & how post-release surveillance was key to identifying a very slight, but real, increase in adverse events.

          • AutismDadd

            haven’t you heard? Vaccines are omnipotent, saves billions of lives and have absolutely no side effects. And vaccines make zero profit for the companies.

          • suz norkan

            It’s a ‘flaw of law and a facade!’ Flawed law facade!

            Dang! It’s so catchy, and ‘rhymie’ and TRUE, I just don’t know why it hasn’t caught on yet, Adadd!

            The ‘flawed law facade’ of the nvicp! Hmmp! What’s not to like! 😉

          • AutismDadd

            Yep, if you have no evidence invent catchy phrases. Comes from the advertising sector, not science.

    • Ron Roy

      Not to mention all the damage done by vaccines increases the, pharmaceutical run, medical establishment’s customer base. Most of all auto-immune nerve diseases are cause by vaccines.

      • Lawrence McNamara

        Citations?

    • Sonja Henie

      New Jersey’s mandatory flu vax is only for child care. It think it’s a good thing, as hygiene in day care is abysmal, no matter how the staff try. Kids cling to their caregivers too, directly exposing them for hours at a time.

      http://www.immunize.org/laws/flu_childcare.asp

    • VikingAPRNCNP

      In 35 years of healthcare I have met exactly two true vaccine injuries. Both developed gbs following an influenza vaccination. I have vaccinated over a thousand sailors without an adverse effect.

    • VikingAPRNCNP

      There is no haggling. If it is a table injury compensation is given 50% plus a feather is the rule.

      The table injuries are quite generous as to time frames…..

  • RandallPoopenmeyer

    I do not believe that vaccines are inherently harmful or pose many risks. I do believe that people should be forced to get vaccinations if they want to work at some place like a school or hospital or attend those place son a regular basis. I do not think that people should be forced to vaccinate though, for any reason.

    • João Pedro Santos

      If people are adults and don’t want to get vaccinated, I don’t care, they are grown up and that’s their own risk. But when they refuse to vaccinate their children what they’re doing is not a “choice” but negligence.

      • RandallPoopenmeyer

        I don’t think so. If we force people to get vaccinated and one of them ends up dying from a tainted needle, who would be the negligent one? I am not saying that vaccines are inherently harmful, but sometimes a tainted needle gets through. Remember the fungal meningitis problem that arose from tainted steroid needles? Very rare, but it happened, and it killed some people.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Dying from a “tainted” needle is different than dying from a vaccine….

          • Given that parents are expected to blindly trust the vaccine providers when they go in and get their injections there is no difference at all.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Funny, because my pediatrician was very open about answering any questions that I might have….

          • So we are allowed to question doctors? So we haven’t done anything wrong then if we decide their answers are not sufficiently acceptable and choose against vaccinating.

            Thanks for clearing that up Lawrence.

          • Joseph

            I question doctors often, most frequently by getting a second or a third opinion.
            It can be hard, frustrating to find a doctor you trust and who you feel is effective at taking care of you.

          • Oh God. You missed the point Joseph. If it is permissible not to trust doctors then it is permissible not to trust in vaccinations just because “the experts” tell us we should.

          • Joseph

            Ahh, I didn’t clarify my response. Thank you for pointing that out.
            It is always possible to find at LEAST one bad MD, at least one bad researcher.
            I could name several MD’s I do not trust.
            But does that mean that all of them are bad?
            Well, no, it doesn’t. Most are good.
            So here is why I say I trust medical science.
            I don’t trust one single researcher.
            I don’t trust one single doctor.
            I don’t trust one single school, government, business. Why should I?
            But 99%+ of all medical doctors favor immunization on schedule.
            99%+ of all research published supports immunization science as I understand it.
            Almost all governments support immunization as a health care policy.
            Almost all universities fully support immunization science. (One, I think, DID award a PHD to an anti vaccine thesis.)
            So I’m not trusting one doctor, or several, or one researcher, or several…
            I’m trusting the consensus. When this many people say for many, many years that vaccines are safe, when the money spent on research supports that, when the best people support it, well…
            It -IS- possible that all these people, all the research is in error, some vast cosmic glitch, whatever.
            But the smart money, my money? That’s on vaccines.

          • RandallPoopenmeyer

            A vaccine can have a tainted needle…

  • How do children who are not vaccinated endanger children who are?

    • João Pedro Santos

      1st – Even vaccinated children aren’t 100% immune to contagious diseases.
      2nd – There are children who cannot be vaccinated because they have a weak immune system and so vaccinating other children is the only way to protect.
      3rd – Since children aren’t able to legally consent medical treatments, their parents should be required to vaccinate them (unless that isn’t possible due to medical reasons, of course) and be charged with negligence if they don’t do so. Children shouldn’t get sick because their parents believe in conspiracy theories.

      • And if the vaccines later prove to have been dangerous, we’ll all easily agree people such as yourself, who forced them into the children with such authoritarian arguments, were negligent, right? Children shouldn’t get sick because Statists strip rights from parents.

        • Joseph

          We have been running vaccines for, um, 60 years on most, over 100 years on many.
          Point to the long range harm they do, but expect difficulty in finding it.

          • Sure. Ever since the 60 years ago you just talked about rates of disability have risen ten fold and healthcare expenditure has quadrupled as a per cent of GDP.

            http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v18n6/v18n6p20.pdf and http://www.census.gov/people/disability/ publications/sipp2010.html (Table A-4) (for disability rates)

            and spending – nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1200478

            Hoisted by your own petard.

            But no matter. Vaccines are useless and dangerous but they do give those who believe in them the superhuman capacity to rationalise so I am sure you will come with some feeble excuse.

          • ‘superhuman capacity to rationalise’
            Nice

      • no vaccine works Joao. Therein lies the problem with your argument. Not a single one of them.

        Doctors just rename the disease – they differentially diagnose the condition if the patient is vaccinated.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          And your proof of that is what, exactly?

          You’re a lunatic.

        • Joseph

          No.
          We can identify the microorganisms that create polio, and those are not the organisms that cause the other, somewhat similar illnesses.
          Oh wait, you don’t believe in germ theory, do you?

          You see, that’s the problem. When the person you are trying to argue with won’t accept basic tenets of science, there’s no way to reach him or her. I’ve tried talking to you before, it’s just not possible to hold a reasonable conversation.
          All I can try to do is to minimize the harm you do. And understand me, sir.
          You do great harm.
          I won’t call you evil, but I confess I am tempted.

          • But even if we could identify the germ that is completely irrelevant – well not irrelevant it actually makes your position less tenable.

            You see, we hardly ever identified the germ before the vaccine came along did we?

            What percentage of polio diagnoses were done using lab confirmation in 1950? I suspect it is much less than 10 per cent. Today it is 100 per cent. You simply cannot diagnose polio unless there is a positive lab result (regardless of how much store you put in that result) today. 65 years ago almost all diagnoses were done without them.

            “I’ve tried talking to you before, it’s just not possible to hold a reasonable conversation.”

            It isn’t my fault that you can only argue your case if your opponent already agrees with 99 per cent of what you believe.

            “You do great harm.

            I won’t call you evil, but I confess I am tempted.”

            You’re evil. You poison babies (or defend the poisoning of babies). That is the greatest crime in history. You know perfectly well it is poisoning them otherwise you would take the entire infant schedule adjusted for your body weight to prove they are safe. But you won’t because you enjoy seeing the harm they cause in babies but refuse to allow the same harm to happen to you.

            That is about the closest to the definition of pure evil that I could think of.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Again, vaccines aren’t adjusted for weight….shear ignorance on your part.

          • Again, I never said they were.

            Shear dishonesty on your part.

            Called a straw man.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Then why ask for something that isn’t done & has no reason to be done.

            Again, if you’re so confident, then you should have no problem accepting my challenge.

            I’ll take the entire schedule – do it even in the same day, if you’ll expose yourself to every single disease we vaccine against.

            Then in a few weeks – let’s say four weeks, we compare our outcomes.

            Deal?

          • It should be done because stress testing is how you determine if something is safe. That is true for all consumer products.

            How do you tell if you can smash a car into a wall safely at 60mph?

            You smash it into a wall at 70mph.

            How do you tell if 70 vaccines given to a baby is perfectly safe?

            You give 700 vaccines to someone 10 times the weight. Actually you give them a whole bunch more but 700 at the very least.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            What complete ignorance of immunology – no, that isn’t the way you test & you would have no reason to do that.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Go back to threatening people, Tristan – it seems to be the other thing you are good at.

          • Joseph

            No.
            Nothing I say will cause a death.
            What you say can cause death and will cause death.

            Now I’m going to tattle on myself here.
            I was more staunchly anti vaccine than you were. I hated them, thought they were wrong, immoral, evil.
            I honestly did.
            I was once anti vaccine. 🙁
            Well, I decided to prove myself right. I was going to look at the evidence one more time, then throw what I knew right into the face of the pro vaccine “terrorists”. (Yes, that’s how I thought back then. Ain’t proud of it now.)
            And I did check.
            First I talked to some of my elders. (I’m old, but not yet as old as the friends I spoke to.)
            That was an eye opener. Where did measles, smallpox, polio go to?
            I looked at the historical evidence.
            Why did every single VPD drop off the map after vaccines came along? Yes, the death rate was dropping prior to the vaccine, good medical science, but the disease was still there, until the vaccine, then POOF.
            So I talked to medical doctors, biologists, whatever. I spent over a year doing this.
            I had no choice when faced with the evidence.
            I changed my mind.
            I’ve seen and argued with you.
            You won’t change your mind.
            I am reminded of the fight between Bill Nye and Kenneth Hamm.
            What will change your mind, Mr. Hamm?
            Nothing!
            What will change your mind, Mr. Nye?
            Evidence.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • “Why did every single VPD drop off the map after vaccines came along? ”

            Doctors differentially diagnosed them because they didn’t like the idea of diagnosing the condition in a patient who had received the vaccine (because of their prejudice that the vaccine works).

            And because the criteria for diagnosis was strengthened (eg demanding lab confirmation).

            If only you had know this eh?

            Only kidding. Obviously your story is a barefaced lie.

          • Lawrence McNamara
        • Mike Stevens

          Forgot your meds, Tristan?

    • Joseph

      First, not everybody can be immunized.
      Infants to young for vaccines are at extreme risk.
      Cancer treatments can depress (read wreck the heck out of) the immune system, making any normal or vaccine induced resistance worthless.
      Then no vaccine gives complete coverage to everybody. I think that perhaps 3 to 5% won’t get normal immunity.
      Then we have elderly, in whom vaccine immunity may wane.
      Then we have YOUR CHILDREN. I worry about them as well.

      • Are you saying that some people have skin so tough that the needle won’t penetrate Joseph?

        Or are you saying that vaccines are useless and dangerous for some people?

        Because if it is the latter then you are correct. But the “some” is in fact “all”.

        And by the way, if you can punish people for not vaccinating because they will supposedly spread disease, shouldn’t you punish other people who engage in behaviour supposedly more likely to spread disease – sick people who visit the doctor for example?

        I mean imagine how much of a hypocrite you would be if you had ever shown up to work with a sniffle eh Joseph?

        • Joseph

          Any time that I have caused illness is another is something I regret. Because I am human, it has happened.
          For example, after I became pro vaccines, I didn’t get the flu shot one year. I forgot. And I got influenza. The real disease, I was sick for a week. Ok, that wasn’t so bad.
          But…
          The toddler I infected wound up in the hospital and almost died.
          That was horrific, I can’t explain to you how badly I felt.

          • Maybe you should also tell the story of when the unicorn refused its MMR shot and as a result the entire Milky Way Galaxy collapsed in on itself.

            Made up nonsense is definitely going to encourage me to go out and inject myself and kids with poisons.

            “That was horrific, I can’t explain to you how badly I felt.”

            That is no doubt true. I could never understand just what overwhelming feelings of sanctimony you regularly feel.

            And you didn’t answer the question. If people should vaccinate to protect others does that mean that the government should ban sick people from visiting doctors or hospitals?

          • Joseph

            I know several pediatricians who refuse to take unvaccinated children, but that really is dodging your question.
            So…
            The issue is this: While a person with an active infectious disease should avoid other people to avoid spreading it, an exception can be and must be made to all medical providers.
            First, these people are paid to put themselves in harms way, as are our military.
            Second, they are skilled at minimizing the risk to themselves and to others.
            Now you will almost always see this warning: In case of rash or (whatever other symptoms warn of measles or an extreme infection) call the facility for instructions as to how to get there. (They may take you in an ambulance, take steps to isolate you, whatever is needed.)
            It’s about minimizing the risk.
            Hope that explains my beliefs.

    • Sonja Henie

      Classic anti-vax 101! You guys think this is a real “gotcha”. It’s not.

      Joseph gave a good explanation. Let me add, if it never occurred to you, unvaccinated kids get many of these diseases at a much higher rate than the vaxed. Also, many of these kids are then contagious for days before they have symptoms, so they’re out there exposing everyone, including the babies who aren’t fully immunized, those whose vaccine didn’t take, those who either temporarily or permanently have a contraindication to vaccination.

      • Pro-vax 099 junior college credits for you Sonja. Don’t be so confident about what’s never occurred to FutureDanger. We track 500 Indicators of threats to Americans every day, likely more than you can fathom from your self-imposed mental box.

        We suggest you tend more to what’s never occurred to you, like the potential for currently undetected side effects of these drugs, or the morality of using State Power to force chemicals into other people.

        Here’s your prebaccalaureate homework for tonight: If a contraindication should apply to everyone, how long before anyone would hear about it?

        • Sonja Henie

          Go clean your toilet. I don’t play with conspiracists.

          • ‘Go clean your toilet.’ Nice. We shall conspire to re-use this retort. Thanks.

    • Seriously? For someone who claims to monitor 5 gazillion threats to Americans before I’m done with breakfast, you sure are asking a dumb question here. Kinda puts the rest of your [fantastical] claims [even further] into question.

      • Is denigrating the value of questions a prerequisite to earning scientific doctorates these days Professor? List the claims here that you demean. Show us academia is not the politicized, indolent, peremptory institution you ‘kinda put’ us in a ‘serious’ position to believe it is.

        P.S. Visit the site to see issues that do matter. The timing of your breakfast completions would not be one.

        • Lawrence McNamara
          • Children who are not vaccinated endanger children who are, because vaccines fail some minute percentage of the time and the unvaccinated increase risk for the tiny percentage of the vaccinated who experience a failure of their vaccine. If this is the stock answer, no wonder the crowd here resorts to insults, rather than ATFQ.

          • The crowd resorts to insults rather than “ATFQ” because it’s been answered at least a thousand times on these boards in just the past months. If you wanted the answer, don’t they have the google in your bunker?

          • A Google Alert found this NDSM Observer article, and apparently you, the Reichsjugendführer of Vaccination Orthodoxy. Thus with all good fascist groupthink forums, wickedness toward the outgroup is encouraged to weed out dissent and harden the faithful.

            So asking ‘How do children who are not vaccinated endanger children who are?’ must be the most counter-revolutionary question ever posed on this topic. Which you oddly frequent. Constantly. While allegedly having a ‘real’ job.

          • Hey, you’re connected. You know “things.” You should already know where I work, and what my PTO balance is.

          • A Munich Beer Hall apparently.

          • Apparently? You mean you don’t know?

        • No, but presenting imaginary threats without the slightest shred of evidence is nothing short of loony. Also, your earlier posts regarding vaccines shows a level of ignorance that I will assume extends to other areas on which you feign special levels of knowledge.

          • Nothing ignored. No imaginary threats presented here – besides, perhaps, the waning immunity thesis. So let’s add deceit to your indolence, peremptoriness, and banality.

            Pack a lunch. Bring a friend. We can do this all day today.

          • Ummm, no. I have a real job that that I need to pay real bills. I can’t spend the day debating imaginary conspiracies with you. But do have fun, and thank you for protecting us all from the scary boogeymen.

          • Your massive number of Disqus comments and the communities you frequently troll belie your words. That ‘real’ job must involve lying regularly, because you sure are good at it. Let’s pray it’s not a teaching position. You’re welcome, Professor.

          • I don’t frequent communities; I frequent topics. I don’t really care where it’s posted. I never lie. Or pray.

          • Your Disqus profile shows the communities you frequent, genius. Trolling Ben Swann’s site, eh? Another lie. And your website is a dead link.

          • You’re just brilliant, aren’t you? Such abilities in acquiring this sensitive information and drawing conclusions from it! lol

            My profile is public because I have nothing to hide. My “website” is clearly fabricated, genius.

            I don’t troll. If you look at the comments I made in response to Swann’s “huge expose” about a non-existent story about a CDC whistleblower, you’ll see that my original statement holds true: I frequent topics, not sites.

          • FSMPastapharian writes ‘I don’t troll’; sentence wrapped by 5 trolling sentences. You really can’t tell when you’re being untruthful, can you?

          • Listen freak, the last thing you want is my undivided attention. Go crawl back into your tinfoil-lined bunker before the Illuminati come for you.

          • Divide your blackshirt attention anyway you want. It’s a Free Country. And we’re here to make sure of it.

          • *snort*

            You’re the perfect mix of pathetic and hilarious.

  • Yes. If more than one government agency agrees with each other then the belief becomes infallble.

    There is simply no way that more than one bureaucrat could ever be wrong about something.

    Lots of government agencies around the world believed that war in Iraq would be a great idea. But it wasn’t.

    What an absolutely ridiculous article. If people who don’t vaccinate are not allowed to attend schools then they shouldn’t have to pay taxes.

    • Lawrence McNamara

      People who don’t have children still pay taxes that go to fund schools….you aren’t very bright, are you?

      • Nobody is writing a law denying them of the right to use those schools. You aren’t very bright are you?

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Actually, I am much brighter than you – since vaccine and immunization mandates have existed as long as this country has been around (1792 – the first mandate was passed by the Commonwealth of Virginia), they are as American as Apple Pie.

          • Joseph

            I’d need to double check the dates, but I believe that the Supreme Court first ruled on vaccines in 1905.
            This would be about a smallpox vaccine. The results were simple: The court ruled that a state had the right to impose mandatory immunization where required in the public interest.
            There have been other cases before the supreme court. Again, IF MEMORY SERVES, all of them were won by pro immunization forces.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            True – it was Jacobson v. Massachusetts which set the first precedent.

          • So were they written down or did they just happen spontaneously?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Your comment doesn’t even begin to make sense…of course these laws were written down.

          • Sorry?

            Are you saying that because some of these mandates happened several hundred years ago they just came into existence spontaneously and nobody had to actually write them down?

            At any rate, these laws have exemptions and – in case you haven’t noticed – politicians have been trying to write these exemptions away.

            Which exact point are you brighter than me on Lawrence?

            Clearly you just thought that after being humiliated on every single point you would grasp at this straw.

            It didn’t work.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-not-to-debate-a-pro-vaxer/#more-39832

            Sorry, but I’ve been down this road before….you are as transparent as you are ignorant.

    • Mike Stevens

      Why don’t you wish to discuss the science of any studies, Tristam?

      Ps don’t bother replying; the question is rhetorical.

  • Ever since the widespread use of vaccination, disability rates and chronic illness have skyrocketed and there has been no improvement in life expectancy trends.

    The fact is that not a single vaccine actually works as the following proves.

    The purpose of the polio vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of non-trauma paralysis and crippling. It failed.

    The purpose of the rubella vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of congenital defects. It failed.

    The purpose of the measles vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of encephalitis and deafness. It failed.

    The purpose of the Hep B vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of liver cancer/disease. It failed.

    The purpose of the Hib and Prevnar vaccines was to bring about a reduction in total rates of meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. They failed.

    The purpose of the diphtheria/pertussis vaccines was to bring about a reduction in acute respiratory infections. They failed.

    The purpose of the mumps vaccine was to reduce sterility. It failed.

    References

    Rubella and congenital defects: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5701a2.htm. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/8935557_The_Metropolitan_Atlanta_Congenital_Defects_Program_35_Years_of_Birth_Defects_Surveillance_at_the_Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention

    Polio and paralysis/crippling:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206817678372895&set=a.1750128025376.2087895.1004117169&type=3&theater (before you say “but this is just a facebook site” it uses the following WHO data)

    extranet.who.int/polis/public/CaseCount.aspx and http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(3)321.pdf (see data for total AFP in India and other developing countries in 1996 and again in 2014) as well as http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v18n6/v18n6p20.pdf and http://www.census.gov/people/disability/ publications/sipp2010.html (Table A-4) (for disability rates). And http://www.christopherreeve.org/site/c.mtKZKgMWKwG/b.5184189/k.5587/Paralysis_Facts__Figures.htm (Around one in 50 Americans have some paralysis and around 40 per cent of those cases are due to disease).

    Diphtheria/pertussis and acute respiratory disease: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804877 and http://www.pharmacytoday.co.nz/news/2015/may-2015/05/respiratory-hospitalisations-keep-climbing-despite-healthcare-improvements.aspx

    Hep B vaccine and liver cancer/disease:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224838 and http://news.sky.com/story/1418422/dramatic-rise-in-liver-disease-deaths

    Hib vaccine and meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/source/rpt_2.cfm… (look at meningococcal disease (invasive) and pneumococcal disease (invasive)) and because of the dismal failure of this vaccine it was inevitably followed by further attempts to vaccinate people against meningitis supposedly caused by other strains (eg Prevnar) showing that abject lunacy (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result) is the standard procedure for vaccination policy experts. Further information here https://avn.org.au/hib/

    Measles vaccine and encephalitis/deafness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870605/ and http://www.hear-it.org/35-million-Americans-suffering-from-hearing-loss

    • So what has happened to all these so-called vaccine preventable diseases if their complications are still just as, if not more, common but we no longer hear about them?

      They have all been renamed – differentially diagnosed.

      Measles has been renamed roseola, fifth disease, etc;

      Polio has been renamed Guillain Barre, transverse myelitis, coxsackie, MS, cerebral palsy, viral meningitis (we actually use more respirators today than we ever did iron lungs by the way it is just that iron lungs were too expensive and dangerous to keep using);

      Diphtheria/pertussis were renamed respiratory syncytial virus, croup, strep, pharyngitis , tonsillitis etc;

      Hepatitis just runs its way through the alpabet;

      Meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on Hib was renamed meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on some other bacteria;

      Smallpox was renamed monkey pox/severe chicken pox.

      • So how did this all happen?

        Well ironically, it didn’t happen because of some wide conspiratorial effort to lie to the public – quite the opposite. It happened because doctors genuinely believed in vaccinations.

        Once a vaccine is introduced doctors are prejudiced against diagnosing that condition based on their belief/hope that the vaccine will work. Indeed, this is why the gold standard for testing is supposed to be a *double* blind placebo trial – the doctor is not supposed to know you received the treatment because it will bias their diagnoses. Unfortunately, the data that is used to prove that vaccines work is not blinded. So why are they prejudiced? Well quite simply because they believe that the vaccine works! The whole thing is so incredibly simple and obvious really, but very often the more simple and obvious it is the harder it is to get our heads around how so many people could miss it – but there are thousands of historical precedents for such things.

        Now, while this “diagnostic bias” makes perfect sense some of you might want to see more concrete evidence of it and you are in luck because, you see, while doctors don’t generally need much encouragement in their pro-treatment bias, health bureaucracies will often explicitly encourage it anyway.

        “To minimize the problem of false positive laboratory results, it is important to restrict case investigation and laboratory tests to patients most likely to have measles (i.e., those who meet the clinical case definition, especially if they have risk factors for measles, such as being unvaccinated,[…]”

        http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

        And here is the UK’s National Health Service: “Following assessment, if a diagnosis of measles is considered likely, it is essential to notify the local Health Protection Unit (HPU)” and subsequently: “Measles is very unlikely in people who have been fully immunized”, followed by “Consider a different cause if the patient is likely to have immunity” http://cks.nice.org.uk/measles#!diagnosissub

        And this is for diphtheria: “Because diphtheria has occurred only rarely in the United States in recent years, many clinicians may not include diphtheria in their differential diagnoses. Clinicians are reminded to consider the diagnosis of respiratory diphtheria in patients with membranous pharyngitis and who are not up-to-date with vaccination against diphtheria.”

        http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt01-dip.html

        And this is for pertussis http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/pertussis/professionals-professionnels-eng.php. According to the Canadian Public Health Agency only those who are not vaccinated (or for whom immunity has ‘waned’) are “at risk”.

        And for polio: “Consider polio in patients presenting with polio-like symptoms, especially if the person is unvaccinated and has recently traveled abroad to a place where polio still occurs, or was exposed to a person who recently traveled from such an area.” http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/828839#vp_2

        “In the absence of known smallpox disease, the predictive value of a positive smallpox diagnostic test is extremely low; therefore, testing to rule out smallpox should be limited to cases that fit the clinical case definition in order to lower the risk of obtaining a false-positive test result. “ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/diagnosis/casedefinition.asp and what is more even the deified polymerase chain reaction (PCR) can and has apparently given positive results for smallpox since its supposed eradication but, again, it couldn’t have been smallpox because we all know smallpox doesn’t exist does it? http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/abstract_meyer.pdf

        In addition to the above, (as you can see from the above links and this one http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt12-polio.html and http://vactruth.com/2015/07/05/cdc-made-polio-disappear/) once a vaccine is introduced, generally speaking the diagnostic criteria is strengthened such that all cases need to be confirmed with a laboratory test (whereas before practically all cases are diagnosed on symptoms alone). Along with the pro-treatment bias of the doctors this pretty much guarantees that the number of diagnosed cases will fall dramatically – irrespective of whether the vaccine did any good.

        • And before people say “but what about the different viruses?” You need to remember that we virtually never looked for the specific disease causing germ before the vaccine is introduced (we simply assumed it was there) so the only way to make a sensible comparison is to compare the rates of symptoms/complications of these diseases before and after their vaccines to evaluate whether they worked.

          In fact, demanding laboratory confirmation today (when it was never required before the vaccine) simply reinforces the fact that the decline in diseases is not real.

          • Justthefacts

            Like this part of teh paper you wrote:
            “Do not get into an argument over studies!

            Over and over again I see you guys throwing out studies and each and every time you get backed into a corner. That is because the moment you explicitly or implicitly endorse the primacy of retrospective studies then you have to deal with the fact that for every one study supporting a link between vaccines and injury there will be ten showing how wonderfully safe they all are. Now, it is true that retrospective studies that run contrary to the prejudices of the researchers have some credibility but that is just another way of saying “these people are arguing against their own self-interests why would they do that if it was just a lie?” Having people argue against their own self-interest is a reasonable argument (both dialectically and rhetorically) but it has nothing specifically to do with the validity of retrospective studies themselves.”

            Disingenuous much?

      • Lawrence McNamara

        Learn a bit of science – literally nothing you’ve posted is true.

        • Quality comeback champ.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, seriously, nothing you’ve said is actually true…..the sky isn’t blue on your planet, is it?

      • Joseph

        It’s impossible to hold a conversation on any scientific subject with somebody who is on record as not believing in germ theory.
        It’s very similar to my trying to discuss carpet installation with somebody who doesn’t believe in floors.

        • If I am so obviously wrong then this should make your job easier not harder Joseph.

          It is not my fault if you struggle to debate anybody who doesn’t already agree with you.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, it is impossible to debate someone who doesn’t live in the same reality as the rest of us…..

            Go back to tilting at Chemtrail windmills.

      • Justthefacts

        A quote from Tristan:

        “It is more
        effective to attack the lack of efficacy of vaccines than it is to attack their
        lack of safety. Gaining traction may well be easier on the
        latter but any victories tend to be hollow because we just end up competing
        with the medical industry and government as to who can incite the greatest fear
        (us of the vaccines or the government/medical industry of the diseases they are
        supposed to prevent). One of the few things government and the medical industry
        excels at is inciting fear which is why our strategy over the past three
        decades has failed. So whilst the safety argument I provide is extremely
        effective, the efficacy argument is the most effective argument overall.

        Tristan, the liar.

        https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-not-to-debate-a-pro-vaxer/#more-39832

    • Lawrence McNamara

      The purpose of the polio vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of non-trauma paralysis and crippling. It failed.
      No, the purpose of the polio vaccine was to bring about a reduction in
      the rate of polio and its attendant paralysis. According to the CDC,
      polio was one of the most dreaded childhood diseases of the 20th
      century, with routine epidemics having occurred since the late 19th
      century, epidemics that increased in size by the early 1950s to average
      10,000 to 20,000 cases per year. After the introduction of the polio
      vaccine, the number of cases plummeted, and there hasn’t been a case of paralytic polio in the US since 1979.
      The purpose of the rubella vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of congenital defects. It failed.
      No, the purpose of the rubella vaccine was to bring about a decline in
      the incidence of rubella and rubella-associated birth defects, known as
      the congenital rubella syndrome. In 1969 there were 57,686 cases of
      rubella reported. After vaccine licensure, as is the case with
      vaccine-preventable diseases, rubella incidence plummeted rapidly,
      with less than 1,000 cases reported in 1983 and only seven cases in
      2003 and a median of 11 cases annually between 2005 and 2013. The
      incidence of CRS paralleled the decline in rubella cases. In October
      2004, the CDC convened an independent expert panel to review available
      rubella and CRS data. After a careful review, the panel unanimously
      agreed that rubella was no longer endemic in the United States.
      The purpose of the measles vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of encephalitis and deafness. It failed.
      No, the purpose of the measles vaccine was to bring about a decline in
      the incidence of measles and measles-associated complications. Measles
      is among the most-contagious known diseases, and before 1963, when the
      measles vaccine was licensed, there were approximately 500,000 cases and 500 deaths
      due to measles reported annually, with epidemic cycles every 2-3 years.
      However, the actual number of cases was estimated at 3-4 million
      annually. After 1963, the incidence of measles plunged by more than 95%
      and the epidemic cycles ceased. Unfortunately, there have been periodic
      resurgences, such as the Disneyland measles outbreak earlier this year. Such outbreaks have always been linked to populations with low vaccine uptake.
      The purpose of the Hep B vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of liver cancer/disease. It failed.
      No, the goal of the hepatitis B vaccine was to bring about a reduction
      in the incidence of hepatitis B. The secondary goal, of course, is to
      reduce the incidence of hepatitis B-related liver cancer and disease.
      The problem is that cirrhosis and the liver cancer that can result from
      cirrhosis due to chronic hepatitis B infection take decades to develop.
      The birth dose of hepatitis B was only strongly recommended in 2005,
      meaning that there has probably not been enough time to see a
      significant reduction in end stage liver disease and cancer due to
      hepatitis B. We would expect that reduction to be small, anyway, because
      hepatitis B is far from the only cause of liver failure and cancer. In
      the US, the number one cause of cirrhosis is alcohol abuse; number two is hepatitis C.
      The purpose of the Hib and Prevnar vaccines was to bring
      about a reduction in total rates of meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. They
      failed. No, the purpose of the Hib and Prevnar vaccines were to
      bring about a reduction in incidence of Hib in children and
      pneumococcal pneumonia. The Hib vaccine succeeded spectacularly in reducing the incidence of Hib. Prevnar is also quite effective against the strains of pneumococcus for which it is designed.
      The purpose of the diphtheria/pertussis vaccines was to bring about a reduction in acute respiratory infections. They failed. No, the purpose of the diphtheria/pertussis vaccines was to decrease the incidence of diphtheria and pertussis. Both succeeded.
      The purpose of the mumps vaccine was to reduce sterility. It failed. No, the purpose of the mumps vaccine was to reduce the incidence of mumps, which it has done, including the incidence of mumps orchitis, which could lead to sterility.

      • So you admit then that the entire vaccination program is a complete waste of time Lawrence?

        After all, what you are trying to argue is that the probability of having paralysis is exactly the same regardless of whether you are vaccinated for polio. Same for probability of having a child with a congenital defect if you are vaccinated for rubella.

        So if your argument is correct we can safely conclude that nobody should bother getting vaccinated. Your probability of being sick, hospitalised or disabled is no better if you are vaccinated for everything under the sun than if you have never received a single vaccination.

        Of course, you’re wrong anyway because as I show in my posts below, we don’t diagnose these conditions in the same way as we did pre-vaccine. But as I say, even if you were right it would simply prove that the entire program was a waste of time and money.

    • Justthefacts

      From your playbook. In your own words:
      “). It is more effective to attack
      the lack of efficacy of vaccines than it is to attack their lack of safety.
      Gaining traction may well be easier on the latter but any victories tend to be
      hollow because we just end up competing with the medical industry and
      government as to who can incite the greatest fear (us of the vaccines or the
      government/medical industry of the diseases they are supposed to prevent). If you explicitly yield the point that vaccines work then you will not
      have achieved anything – at least nothing good anyway. Don’t think that by
      trying to sound conciliatory by yielding on efficacy others will be more
      inclined to hear your point of view on safety. That is the approach we have
      been using for the past several decades and, in case you missed it, it has been
      an abject failure. ”

      Since you openly say that you must reject the effectiveness of vaccines even if they are effective. YOU ARE A DOCUMENTED LIAR. You can go now…..

  • al

    No mention of the CDC whistleblower?

    • Lawrence McNamara

      Why? It isn’t even a thing.

      • al

        You’re right. The CDC covering up evidence that the mmr vaccine causes autism is nothing

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Because they did nothing of the sort….even old Ben Swann sent that one down the memory hole.

          • al

            He did just the opposite lol.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Really? Then find it on his site (you can’t because it isn’t there anymore).

            Anyway – here’s the real story:

            http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2016/01/04/the-william-thompson-documents-theres-no-whistle-to-blow/

          • al

            It’s on Facebook and YouTube. Easy to find.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Neither of those two things are actually scientific studies or research.

          • Brian

            You do realize that whole thing was a hoax, right? Even Thompson’s own documents debunk the conspiracies and allegations.

          • Justthefacts

            Ben Swann let that Hoax go. It’s time for you to do the same.

          • Graceds

            Astroturf site.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Tell that to Matt Carey and his autistic son, I dare you.

          • Graceds

            His experience of a child on the spectrum, doesn’t negate the experience of others whose children’s health was harmed by vaccines.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            So, you insult him?

          • Graceds

            His perspective could broaden to recognize that parents have experienced medical problems from vaccination in their families..

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Answer my question.

          • Graceds

            Bully much?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You don’t know what bullying is, do you?

          • Graceds

            You seem to know rather well.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes. Anti-vaxers threatened my children. I know bullies very well.

          • Graceds

            I support your right to vaccinate your family as often as permitted.
            I support the right of families to selectively vaccinate, or to vaccinate on a delayed schedule.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You can choose, but you will also face the consequences of that choice.

          • Graceds

            Vaccinations have consequences too.
            Including death, transverse myelitis, Guillain Barre, optic Neuritis, ms, acute disseminating encephalomyelitis etc.
            That means the state has no right to coerce this particular medical intervention.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Talk the the US Supreme Court….vaccine mandates have existed for over 200 years.

          • Graceds

            Well that makes it okay.
            SCOTUS never ever makes mistakes.
            Ever.
            Never.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Backed up by decades of research and mountains of evidence of vaccine safety and efficacy.

          • Graceds

            Safe for some, not for others.
            We’ve known that for decades too.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Who and why, and what evidence?

          • Graceds

            Your pretense of unawareness of Vaccine Injury is offensive.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Your lack of evidence is damning.

          • suz norkan

            Your ROCK needs a remodel, darlin’; or at least a subscription to your local news pebble… er a paper! Har d har! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Sorry, but I deal with actual reality and evidence….not anti-vax “stories,” that have no actual facts behind them.

          • suz norkan

            Facts stem from observations! THAT’S science, darlin’!

            I don’t see any anti vax posting here! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Observations are merely the first step….subsequent steps require evidence and then continued study for replication….

            Care to explain why large retrospective epidemiology studies can’t seem to find any link between vaccines and autism, for instance?

            And I’ll wager than your next answer will involve some measure of a conspiracy….

          • suz norkan

            Many studies have shown links of severe injury and death to vax!

            Conspiracy; a collusion of a plan! Are you so naive that you feel no govt officials have ever been corrupt and that they ALWAYS put the good of the people above their own greed!

            Another BAD wager for you, Law! ;(

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Then provide them.

          • suz norkan

            Look ’em up! Do your own research! I won’t waste my time on your ‘evidence exchange’ games!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I have. You are wrong.

          • suz norkan

            I disagree! You’re WRONG! Research done on biased blogs that promote ‘scientism’ is invalidated due to prejudicial misconception, myopic minded perceptions and concealment of error!

          • suz norkan

            What rock does Law live under!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No rock, just reality. You obviously don’t live in it.

          • suz norkan

            I’m right HERE and I’m certainly not oblivious enough to pretend that there are no injuries or death from vax!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And neither am I, but the rate of serious adverse reactions is incredibly small – certainly much, much smaller than the rate of serious reactions – including death, from the diseases that vaccines prevent.

            Perhaps you’d like to talk to the 120,000 people or so who died from measles still, every single year….oh yes, you can’t, can you?

            Or what about the 300 – 500 Million people who died from Smallpox in the 20th Century, before eradication….

            Again, you don’t live in the same reality as the rest of us.

          • suz norkan

            I’m right HERE and I’m certainly not oblivious enough to pretend that there are no injuries or death from vax!

            I’ll take my chances with the vpd’s, thank you!

            Your reality is tainted, unsophisticated & of the myopic minded!

          • suz norkan

            ‘Existed’ WITH religious and personal EXEMPTIONS!

            On some law books it’s still illegal to wear lipstick outside city limits! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope – originally, there were no exemptions.

          • suz norkan

            Yes! There were! And mandatory and compulsory are two different animals!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes, they are – vaccine mandates are not compulsory vaccinations.

            You can still choose, but you can’t choose to avoid the consequences of not vaccinating.

          • suz norkan

            Not without coercion which makes a compulsory a mandatory!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Sorry, but all choices have consequences – and I’m sorry that you believe that you can live without consequences.

          • suz norkan

            Forcing parents who need two incomes to live on for the welfare of their children, to make a decision with an outcome of becoming a one income family, is NOT a choice with ‘consequences’ but a choice made under duress, which constitutes coercion!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, it doesn’t. Not in this case.

            Seriously, these mandates have existed in various forms since this country was founded. You really need to learn some history.

          • suz norkan

            I know my history sweetie, and certainly understand the police power of the STATE!

            Jacobson was fined and no one was FORCED to be vaxed!

            States also allow for self quarantine in the event of outbreaks!

            It’s you mysophobics who foolishly cry that the sky is falling! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes, he was fined. And kids who aren’t vaccinated are prohibited from school.

            Consequences, right?

          • suz norkan

            Wrong! Coercion! Mandatory decisions made under duress are NOT consequences; but rather constitute intimidation, threat, force, oppression, repression, impetus and…. COERCION!

            And governmental accepted and implemented coercion introduces fascism and tyranny, which when used in conjunction with medical mandates, negates nuremberg!

            Wrong! NOT CONSEQUENCES! DURESS AND COERCION!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Wrong – you just don’t like the fact that you are being held accountable for your choices.

          • suz norkan

            Wrong! Mandatory decisions to be made without ‘free will choice’ due to the intimidation or threat of subsequent hardship and adversity, are NOT ‘free will choices’ with simple consequences, but rather are choices being required under duress, which establishes coercion!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You are still wrong.

          • suz norkan

            I disagree! It’s you who are wrong, Lawrence!

            You ‘forced/mandatory vaxers’ deprecate the men and women who fought, became injured and even DIED fighting for the freedom of ‘free will choice’ for this great country, without threat of duress, coercion, fascism and tyranny!

          • Boris Ogon

            Nope – originally, there were no exemptions.

            Yes! There were!

            This is one of the most blindingly stupid things I’ve ever seen Scuz insist upon. See Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922); Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158 (1944).

          • suz norkan

            Exemptions, exceptions and waivers for compulsory school vax!

            Your reference is not relevant, persona non grata Borings!

            The ‘stupid’ is you! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            Exemptions, exceptions and waivers for compulsory school vax!

            Your reference is not relevant, persona non grata Borings!

            The ‘stupid’ is you! 😉

            This is incoherent jabbering. You asserted that nonmedical exemptions to public-school vaccine requirements have always existed. This is trivially false.

            Go have another mugful of Vat 69; forgetting that it ever happened is your best option at this point.

          • suz norkan

            The authority to grant any exception to vax is left to the health depts. of the local municipalities; & I speak of current school vax requirements!

            You enjoy the mugs of your preference, persona non grata Borings! Meditation works just fine for me! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            I speak of current school vax requirements!

            Once again:

            Nope – originally, there were no exemptions.

            Yes! There were!

            And that’s just one example of what you were asserting 10 hours ago, which, again, is trivially false.

          • suz norkan

            Not false! Personally adjudicated under the health dept. of local municipalities! Just because there was no formal paperwork, does NOT mean there were no exceptions!

            I also speak to our current state of compulsory school vax and have had children in school from the late 70’s to 2006. I know that since the schedule has become so tedious, that all but 2 u.s. states had personal and/or religious waivers.

            May sweet dreams of api stats dance in you head. Har d har! What jokes yall are! Good night, persona non grata Borings! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            The ‘stupid’ is you!

            What happened to the “and you’re a pud”–moronic emoticon combo comment? I’m having trouble finding that homage to knuckle-dragging at the moment.

            Did you resort to “urban dic”? I was so looking forward to countering with “Squirtz Quimkan!,” although “Fanny” was in the running.

          • suz norkan

            Irrelevant and off topic nonsense, persona non grata Borings. Too ‘off topic!’ Didn’t read! Should you be blubbering about the term ‘pud,’ I pilfered that from Adadd!

          • Boris Ogon

            Should you be blubbering about the term ‘pud,’ I pilfered that from Adadd!

            Could you clarify whether your “defense” is rank ignorance or hypocrisy? Did you edit the original comment? If not, where is it?

          • suz norkan

            I can clarify YOUR ‘rank ignorance and hypocrisy,’ persona non grata Borings! So what!

            It’s still there, but who cares! I was merely replying to your off topic comment anyway! Coo coo kachoo, Borings!

          • Proponent

            Evade and deflect much, graceds?

            Of course.. you did.. and will continue to do so.

            Your commenting history is chock-full of your passive-aggressive posts and comments and you tucking your tail and scampering away when questioned about the content of your posts.

            … …

            But.. you’ve set your profile to ‘Private’ once more.

          • Graceds

            … …

          • suz norkan

            Never mind that pansy! You’ve already answered and you’ve hardly insulted a biased blogging site, that many confuse with valid science data and of which I’ve lovingly pet named ‘two half brains!’ 😉

          • ibid

            Like anyone cares what some mental defect has pet named anything.

          • suz norkan

            Someone who took the time to ‘reply’ must care enough to reply!

            And see how your disparaging insult of those who suffer valid mental health issues just rolls right off my back, ibid! I didn’t feel a thing, sweetie! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Care to wager on that?

          • suz norkan

            If I were a betting person, I’d wager that I had a royal flush! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Go ahead.

          • suz norkan

            Learn to understand what you read, darlin’! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I understand just fine – you obviously do not.

          • suz norkan

            I said IF I were a betting person! Duh! Someone did NOT understand what was written, Law! Aw!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Because you know the odds aren’t in your favor.

          • suz norkan

            Because I don’t gamble! Duh!

          • Boris Ogon

            He’s a bully only online! Face to face, you’d be looking at a pansy!

            I find Ms. Grimshaw’s* sudden fondness for “Three’s Company”–level anti-gay insults to be mildly interesting.

            * More accurately, the raging personality disorder that substitutes.

          • suz norkan

            Sorry! I most certainly am NOT anti gay and have no idea where that lie came from, Borings! I don’t know about a ms. grishmaws stance on yea or nay gayness!

            I stated before that I don’t watch mindless tv. Never saw ‘threes company,’ persona non grata Borings!

          • Boris Ogon

            I most certainly am NOT anti gay and have no idea where that lie came from

            “Lie”? You’re using “fairy” and “pansy” as insults.

          • suz norkan

            You’re about to be put on a tighter leash of persona non grata status, Borings! You’re being even more of a blowharding bufoon than usual!

            JESTthefacts and I have been discussing fairy pics hanging on the walls and pansys are wimps; males OR females!

            Again, you’ve been reading too much urban dic, persona non grata Borings, and I’m about to truly cut you off again. Some of my best friends are gay, and for all you know, I could be gay!

            Don’t even think about apologizing until you kiss my sassafras a few times!

          • Boris Ogon

            You’re about to be put on a very tight leash, persona non grata status, Borings!

            By whom, ankle-biter?

          • suz norkan

            By the one controlling the leash!

          • Boris Ogon

            By the one controlling the leash!

            The only “leash” involved is yours, Fifi, and you demonstrably refuse to use it. Again, you demonstrate a wholesale lack of anything resembling executive function or self-reflective behavior.

            If I respond, you bark. It’s like a really primitive version of why suddenly lifting one’s arm amidst a flock of pigeons pecking around causes them to take flight en masse.

          • suz norkan

            I don’t even approach you, yet you still feel the obsessive need to interject your blowharding bushwa directed at suz, into the conversation!

            I’ve used a tighter leash, refusing to answer you, and the archives prove it! To what extent I may reply to your infatuations, is dependent on how I feel about you in that moment; do I want to play or walk away!

            Bear your own behavior, you bloated birdbrain, persona non grata Borings! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            Some of my best friends are gay

            Sweet Jesus.

            and for all you know, I could be gay!

            Have you told your imaginary children yet?

          • She’s truly exhausting.

          • Boris Ogon

            The most tedious part is the “threats” to stop responding, despite a glaring lack of executive function:

            I’m about to truly cut you off again

            “Again”? Is Dr. Grumpy in the House still blogging? I recall one excellent post about choosing reflex hammers.

          • Yeah, if only. The majority of her posts involve nothing but petty irrelevant arguments with other posters, and don’t even pretend to be on topic.

          • Boris Ogon

            The majority of her posts involve nothing but petty irrelevant arguments with other posters, and don’t even pretend to be on topic.

            Oh, dear, did you miss her Star Wars phase?

            youtube[.]com/watch?v=NnP5iDKwuwk

          • Sonja Henie

            TRue, lots of name calling, shouting, what have you.

          • suz norkan

            I don’t approach you, yet you still feel the obsessive need to interject your blowharding bushwa directed at suz, into the conversation!

            I’ve used a tighter leash, refusing to answer you, & my archives show that! To what extent I may reply to your infatuations, is dependent on how I feel about you in that moment; do I want to play or walk away! 😉

          • suz norkan

            We’ve talked about it! 😉

          • ibid

            He’s a father with a child with autism – a doctor even. But you invalidate Matt Carey’s experience because anyone who challenges your braindead bullshlt is “astroturf.”

            “Astroturf” is someone like you, Gracie.

          • suz norkan

            Never mind that pansy! You’ve already answered and you’ve hardly insulted a biased blogging site, that many confuse with valid science data and of which I’ve lovingly pet named ‘two half brains!’ 😉

          • Jenny Higgs

            Which is what medical exemptions are for.

          • Graceds

            Are you still in England, where children are not refused education because of vaccination status?

          • suz norkan

            How many children have to be sacrificed before it’s learned that medical exemptions are necessary and are finally authorized!

            What naive little grasshoppers these neophytes are!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No child is sacrificed, except for those of anti-vaxers, who die of things like Diphtheria.

          • suz norkan

            So our children, killed by vax, are just collateral damage for your narcissistic and delusional herd immunity!

            I don’t know any anti vaxers! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You are the delusional one….

          • suz norkan

            I disagree and opine that you’re the ‘delusional one’ and you’re looking more so with each reply!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            We certainly have different definitions of “delusional.”

            Please provide the actual citations and evidence that support your so-called beliefs.

          • suz norkan

            I won’t engage in your silly and insignificant citation standoffs! I’m about out of time for your foolish game as well!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            If you wanted to convince me, you would provide evidence.

            If you can’t, then you aren’t serious.

          • suz norkan

            There’ plenty of evidence out there! Go and get some instead of playing on the biased and misguided blogs of 2 half brains, craptor, science b.s. & meds, etc.! 😉

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And what “harm?”

          • Graceds

            Really?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes. What harm and what rate do you claim is caused by vaccines?

            And then provide the actual evidence to back it up?

  • Lawrence McNamara

    Notice that Tristen won’t answer my response to his “challenge.”

    Here’s why:

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-not-to-debate-a-pro-vaxer/#more-39832

    • You can provide all the responses you like.

      If you want to show they are safe then you take the entire schedule adjusted for your body weight.

      That is all there is to it. No amount of demands for reciprocation or excuses or attacks on my character are going to change that.

      Everybody can read your responses and see that you are just looking for plausible deniability.

      • Lawrence McNamara

        No, just reality. Vaccines, whether given to a child or an adult, aren’t adjusted for weight – because they don’t work that way.

        Seriously, get a new gig, because this one is old and tired.

        • It would be old and tired if you had actually done this.

          But you haven’t.

          Nobody has.

          Until you do, vaccines must be assumed to be dangerous.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Why? By what evidence do you believe that your “challenge” has anything to do with actual vaccine safety?

          • Justthefacts

            Its right here is your playbook. In your own words:
            .
            “So their studies are horseshit but the moment you lay out a whole bunch of studies as proof for your own case it will become very hard for you to reject all their studies on principle. So don’t. ………
            “In short, always always always bring it back to the fact that if they truly
            believed they were safe then they would put their money where their mouths are and take the entire infant schedule adjusted for their body weight.”
            .
            You design your arguments to be disingenuous. You are a liar.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Bull. No one claims that vaccines are absolutely safe. The question needs to be taken in context.

            Mmr risk for life threatening adverse effects less than 1 per million.

            Wild measles 1 death per thousand cases.

            Another 2 to 3 cases of sensory or cognitive deficit.

            Approximately 20% require hospitalization.

            Add in the risk for sspe. A painful 10 year death from measles caused dementia.
            About 8.5 cases per million in an unvaccinated population. (1960 to 1974 estimates)
            Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.
            AU
            Bellini WJ, Rota JS, Lowe LE, Katz RS, Dyken PR, Zaki SR, Shieh WJ, Rota PA
            SO
            J Infect Dis. 2005;192(10):1686.

            Vaccination is far safer than the illness….

          • AutismDadd

            So for almost no adverse effects they create vaccine injury compensation plans in at least 19 countries?

          • suz norkan

            And hey! “No one claims that vaccines are absolutely safe.”

            So it gives us the chance at ‘spinning the wheel’ to take ‘life or death’ or other serious and permanent injurious chances with our children’s lives!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Because “diseases” are so safe, right?

          • suz norkan

            Right! You got one correct; especially the vpds in areas where there is proper sanitation and adequate medical care available!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            So, you are in favor of children getting sick & possibly dying.

            You are certainly pro-disease & pro-death.

          • suz norkan

            No! Which is why I leave vax choice up to the individuals who know their child’s medical history; negating unnecessary severe injury or death from vax!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            It is always your choice – but all choices have consequences.

          • suz norkan

            A choice made under duress is coercion! If it involves a medical choice it negates nuremberg!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yawn. This is a good example of what passes for thinking in Sue’s head. Nuremberg is about research ethics nobody is being forced to participate in a medical study. So her comments are, as usual irrelevant.

          • suz norkan

            Persona non grata Grahamie is here to stalk with lies; since many individuals would never consider months old fast tracking or ‘off label’ use of pharmaceuticals, on par with long term studies which have been tested for 10 yrs. or more!

            One has the right to consider and decline, any medical intervention causing adverse side effects [informed consent] especially if such medically invasive procedures are being made mandatory.

            I consider many meds [including the unproved prophylactic pharmaceuticals for many vpds] to still be in the experimental stages!

            My comments regarding these minimally studied ingredients being injected into our children without prudence for injuries or death caused by such in the long run, to be experimental and are certainly relevant to nuremberg when there is no ‘free will choice’ without duress!

          • Jonathan Graham

            You can believe whatever fantasy makes you happy and apparently you believe quite a few. Your argument was that something contravened Nuremberg however this is not a medical trial. So it can not violate Nuremberg. QED.

            The fact that you don’t believe that some medicine does not meet some poorly thought out standard of evidence. Is neither here nor there.

          • suz norkan

            The fact that you’ve never experienced a medical injury from interventions that were once shown safe, but later injured or killed many, shows how naive you are.

            You take the experimental medical protocol [surgical, pharma, etc.] and FORCE it on others, you’re negating their ‘free will choice,’ making them choose under duress, which constitutes coercion and violates nuremberg.

            The delusions are from you, persona non grata!

          • Kathy

            I have experienced a medical injury from a vaccine, from an antibiotic, and from two pain relievers. I am not antivax, I am not anti-antibiotics, and I am not anti pain relief. I am rational and understand the rarity of what happened to me. Risk analysis. Math is hard, I know, but it is important.

            Furthermore, since you have the free choice to deny yourself any treatment you want, then you are not forced. Thus, vaccination mandates do not violate nuremburg code. However, as I have told many an antivaxer, do please write to The UN and plead your case. Let me know what they say. Maybe ask Amnesty International, too.

          • suz norkan

            Good for you that you lived through your slight events, without severe scars or death!

            Since many RARE side effects have happened to us, we no LONGER consider them so RARE!

            We could swap stories, but I KNOW you won’t top mine, since my scars are NOT just my own.

            Neither am I anti vax, etc., so that blows a big hole in your little theory!

            And since vax is being mandated and coerced it DOES violate nuremberg and is certainly not what the U.S. stands for!

            Nah! We just need to let your corruptions play themselves out; the laws will change accordingly, darlin’!

            Thanks for your pseudo concern though, Kathy! 😉

          • Kathy

            You don’t know my events were slight. You don’t know whether I risked death or not.

            As for Nuremburg, write to the UN. Let me know what they say. Because you can scream ” nuremburg violation” all day but that won’t change a thing in this country. Supreme Court has already stated, many times, vaccine mandates are perfectly legal. Go see what the UN says. They are the only hope you have of getting anyone to agree to your Nuremburg claims. I would love to see someone write to them, post the letter, post the response.

          • Jenny Higgs

            What about The Hague?

          • suz norkan

            Slight! One suffers far more when such injury occurs to their own child! So yes! Slight!

            I’ll comment on nuremberg as much as I like! All I need to do is watch, as more and more of vax manufax corruption is acknowledged by the unsophisticated like yourself; with larger populations questioning the ingredients, schedule and efficacy of vax, and the deceit of the flawed law facade which unscrupulously protects their misdeeds!

            Along with that, people can plainly see that 277 would NOT have passed without corruption, and will demand that the slop in our own legislation be cleaned up. It’s happening already with the dark act being defeated!

            I don’t need a response to my comments regarding nuremberg! Many are already aware that our freedoms are being chipped away by corrupt corporate greed like you forced vaxers, and are taking action!

          • Kathy

            So, if my child had a broken arm, I would suffer more from that than if I had broken the arm? That makes zero sense. I suffered from multiple drug injuries.

            Of course you have the right to comment on Nuremburg as much as you want, until you get banned again. Since the US Supreme Court has already decided vaccine mandates are constitutional and do not violate civil liberties, you will get nowhere. But, hey, you can shout it to the moon if you want! Won’t change any laws!

            There has been no proven corruption claims with SB277. You all keep harping Dr Pan was bought out when 1.7% of his campaign donations, at the time of SB277, came from pharma companies. One point seven. It’s pretty funny you all thought that was corruption. If anything, it proved how little pharma money was involved.

            And getting SB277 overturned? Like with a referendum? (ROFL!)

          • suz norkan

            I hadn’t said anything about overturning 277!

            Oh! We’ll never get laws changed! You must be omnipotent now like Dorit! Har d har! We just shot down the dark act!

            Yes! When my child is suffering and in pain, it causes me more pain than my own physical pain. Makes perfect sense to loving parents.

            We saw the corruption first hand. It’s already been proved by all observers other than the myopic minded such as yourself.

            And should I happen to become banned here, we’ll ALL know that you and your little astroBRAT playmates had a hand in prejudicial censorship, and NOT because I’ve violated any tos!

          • Kathy

            Dorit is my friend and she calls me her first vax mentor. Tickles me that someone so wonderful says I helped her on her path. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            Isn’t that special! 😉

          • Kathy

            Well, not your science and medicine (*cough* ) but we both are certainly extremely well versed in immunization science.

          • suz norkan

            Har d har! Shirley you jest! And you know pharma likely has some great products that can help ‘ya with that *cough*! 😉

          • Kathy

            It was really more of a gag at something nasty in the air.

          • suz norkan

            Regardless, YOUR pharma has a pill for it! The cure may likely kill ‘ya before what ails you though!

            You should consider moving farther away from the sewage plant! 😉

          • Kathy

            Interestingly, I have never once been banned from disqus.

          • suz norkan

            Me either! 😉

          • Kathy

            ahahahahahaha, maybe not (yet) with this account! I’ve seen the list of all your alters who’ve been banned

          • suz norkan

            That’s what you get for thinking with a myopic and closed mind. I’ve never been banned by disqus.

            Aw! Sorry to burst another one of your mysophobic bubble!

            Bwa hahahahah! Most every one of those ‘alters’ were from your little astroBRATS who had set up parody impostor accts., and each time I’d change my name, they would follow suit!

          • Kathy

            USA has been provax since revolutionary war

          • suz norkan

            The US has been pro freedom since the revolutionary war and they didn’t have the corruption, greed, sanitation and amount of medical facilities we have today, darlin’!

            A few yrs. have passed since the revolutionary war, Kathy! Har d har! 😉

          • Jenny Higgs

            International Court Of Justice too?

          • Jonathan Graham

            you’ve never experienced a medical injury from interventions that were once shown safe, but later injured or killed many, shows how naive you are.

            Apparently you’re almost as naive as I am. As you’ve never experienced being killed by a medical intervention either. In fact, in so far as vaccines go. Almost nobody has been. VSDI data was examined for this exact outcome and found nothing.

            It takes a very special kind of imagination to construe all medical practice as a research study. However those of us in the real world would notice that nobody is claiming that the primary goal is research, nor is there any protocol, control, blinding, record keeping or really anything else you would find as defining of a research trial.

            So again, this is not research and Nuremberg does not apply.

          • suz norkan

            I didn’t say just me! Learn to read, persona non grata!

          • Jonathan Graham

            you’ve never experienced a medical injury from interventions

            Normally, in English this refers to ones own experiences. Notice how the the subject of the sentence is “you” and the verb is “experience”?

            Yawn. You allegedly have a standard of evidence which you claim hasn’t been met. If this is all it took to consider something research. Then even if we met your standard. I could claim a standard which includes something that your standard does not and subsequently proclaim that everything in the universe still violates Nuremberg.

            Yawn. Please try to get interesting quickly. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            Again! Learn to understand what you read and write. Your comment above is senseless!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Notice how I can point out exactly where you make an error and you can only seem to make a broad generalization? I bet other people do. I get that doing this makes you feel better but it’s deceptive. Just learn to converse without all your passive-aggressive nonsense.

          • Sonja Henie

            Forget it Jonathan! This is anti-vax 101!

          • suz norkan

            Good advice for once! However, I don’t see any anti vax posting here!

          • Sonja Henie

            Snort! This whole Nuremberg shtick is anti-vax. Vaccines aren’t experimental, no matter how much you AVs want to think so.

          • suz norkan

            Pffft! Nuremberg is hardly anti vax!

            Of course today’s current and expanded vax regiments are experimental. They sure haven’t been studied long term!

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, Good Grief! Smallpox was used from 1798 until 1980, almost 200 years. Diphtheria, about 100 years now. Tetanus and pertussis, about 70 years. Polio, 61 years, measles 53, mumps 49, rubella 47. Hep B, about 35 years now, Hib, 31, Prevnar 16, HPV 10, rotavirus 10, Menactra (meningitis) 11. Not to mention these vaccines were studied for years before they were approved.

          • suz norkan

            Well goodness gracious and bless your heart, Katia! You musta’ missed this; ‘Of course today’s current and expanded vax regiments are experimental. They sure haven’t been studied long term!’ 😉

          • Sonja Henie

            Who are you responding to? There’s no one named Katia on here. I think you’ve had about 10 names though, suz.

            You’re lying, in any event.

          • suz norkan

            Nope! I usually supplied an alternate nym symbolic of suz, even when your astroBRAT friends kept impersonating suz!

            How foolish and frivolous to change your nym after years of being Katia, Katia! Especially when it’s unnecessary, Katia!

            Suz doesn’t lie, Katia! 😉

          • Sonja Henie

          • suz norkan

            I think you may mean … — … for your sinking ship, Katia! 😉

          • Kathy

            Let’s look at the Nuremburg code, shall we?

            1. You must always consent to a vaccine, or consent for your child. So, no violation.
            2-10 The rest is about experiments. So, does not apply to vaccines.

            http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/archive/nurcode.html

          • suz norkan

            Nope! Been there! Done that! I’ve spent beaucoup time crackerjacking nuremberg and explaining it to yall!

            Gotta’ run! My biscuits are burning! Bye for now, Kat! 😉

          • suz norkan

            I ‘NOTICE’ that your comment was gibberish and senseless!

          • Jonathan Graham

            your comment was gibberish and senseless

            Nope. I pointed out that your prior response was broad and mine was specific. That’s pretty clear. You on the other hand used sweeping generalizations and appear unable to point out exactly what makes my post “gibberish” or “senseless”.

            Keep playing this game if you like. However you would be better served just to learn to talk without all this defensiveness.

          • suz norkan

            I don’t care how ‘specific or broad’ a reply is! Your comment was unintelligible! I read through it several times, and still walked away without knowing what you were attempting to spit out!

            I’m not defensive about anything! I simply replied to your comment several posts up, and stated my observation regarding your failure to put together some coherent thought in THAT particular comment!

          • Jonathan Graham

            I don’t care how ‘specific or broad’ a reply is!

            Apparently. However it speaks to your responses being just broad generalizations and mine being significantly more thought-out.

            I read through it several times

            It’s simple. You claim that some aspects of current medical practice: What doctors do to address and/or prevent illness is a violating the Nuremberg Code. Right? However since the Nuremburg code only applies to research. Your assertion appears to be that current medical practice are effectively research. Your argument for this appears to be that this is true because they don’t meet some standard of evidence. I simply pointed out how that’s insufficient to make your point.

          • Sonja Henie

            “Your argument for this appears to be that this is true because they don’t meet some standard of evidence.”

            Actually, her argument for this is that she says so.

          • suz norkan

            How nice for you, that this makes sense on your planet! It seems we’re discussing different subjects, and you severely misinterpreted the comment your reply to. Your response makes no sense; is senselessss!

            Jonathan Graham suz norkan • 18 hours ago

            “you’ve never experienced a medical injury from interventions

            Normally, in English this refers to ones own experiences. Notice how the the subject of the sentence is “you” and the verb is “experience”?

            Anyway. You allegedly have a standard of evidence which you claim hasn’t been met. If this is all it took to consider something research. Then even if we met your standard. I could claim a standard which includes something that your standard does not and subsequently proclaim that everything in the universe still violates Nuremberg.

            Please try to get more interesting more quickly. :-)”

            You can try to break it down and convince yourself and your astroBRAT friends that your comment has merit for a month of sundays, since you don’t mind wasting the readers time!

            However, my biscuits are burning, and I’ll spend no more of my time on your silly games, persona non grahamie! 😉

          • suz norkan

            How nice for you, that this makes sense on your planet! It seems we’re discussing different subjects, and you severely misinterpreted the comment your reply to. Your response makes no sense; is senselessss!

            Jonathan Graham suz norkan • 18 hours ago

            “you’ve never experienced a medical injury from interventions

            Normally, in English this refers to ones own experiences. Notice how the the subject of the sentence is “you” and the verb is “experience”?

            Anyway. You allegedly have a standard of evidence which you claim hasn’t been met. If this is all it took to consider something research. Then even if we met your standard. I could claim a standard which includes something that your standard does not and subsequently proclaim that everything in the universe still violates Nuremberg.

            Please try to get more interesting more quickly. :-)”

            You can try to break it down and convince yourself and your astroBRAT friends that your comment has merit for a month of sundays, since you don’t mind wasting the readers time!

            However, my biscuits are burning, and I’ll spend no more of my time on your silly games, persona non grahamie! 😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            It seems we’re discussing different subjects, and you severely misunderstand and misrepresent the comment you replied to.

            But of course you can’t say with any useful degree of specificity what is being misrepresented.

          • Bjorn Fowler

            Still waiting on that evidence that vaccines kill.

          • suz norkan

            Get crackerjackin’ then, darlin’, ’cause there’s plenty of it out there! 😉

          • Bjorn Fowler

            Then provide it, that’s how things work in the real world. It lets us weed out liars like you.

          • suz norkan

            In the ‘real world’ that I live in, most intelligent individuals prefer to research and validate their own data, if it’s important to them!

            You’ve been playing on the ‘scientism’ blogs too long, FOULer! 😉

          • Bjorn Fowler

            In the ‘real world’ you have to prove your claims or you are a liar. That’s why in any scientific article (Not that you would know) you have to back up every statement outside of your data with a citation.
            Now stop stalling and provide that evidence.

          • Kathy

            If you consider vaccines to be in the experimental stage, then what do you consider to be past experimental stage? Immunization science is 400 years old. Innoculation science is 1000 years old.

          • suz norkan

            Vax ingredients used today are hardly 400-1000 yrs. old! Go play your silly games over on science b.s. & meds., darlin’!

          • Kathy

            Formaldehyde, aluminum, mercury – those are all as old as time.

          • Mike Stevens

            Maybe not as old as time, but at least 4 billion years old, anyhow.

          • Kathy

            But I was being hyperbolic for the hyperbole queen. 😉

          • Mike Stevens

            I know.
            What’s a few billion years between friends…
            😉

          • suz norkan

            And so much more, and more, and more and MORE! 😉

          • Kathy

            Eh, if you fear the ingredients, you are not scientifically literate. Don’t be scared of chemicals. They are all around and in you! The dose makes the poison!

          • suz norkan

            Eh! Paracelsus laughs at you from his grave. And that’s why toxins today have different levels of toxicity and we have msds!

            I’m not scared of chemicals, sweetie! I AM chemicals! Bwa ha ha! 😉

          • Kathy

            “Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison.”

            Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy.
            Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/paracelsus.html
            Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy.
            Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/paracelsus.html

          • suz norkan

            Sorry! I don’t get my science from your blogs! Next you’ll puke up the old ‘even water is toxic’ crap! It’s not!

            Paracelsus also believed in magic! Many valid scientists [not you who practice scientism at your playground blogspots] dispute Paracelsus!

            But you go ahead and enjoy as many teeny tiny doses as plutonium as you like! 😉

          • Kathy

            So, you just admitted you don’t do science. Ha! Gotcha!

          • suz norkan

            I love real science. I live real science! I AM real science, darlin’!

            I don’t play your ‘scientism’ games!

            Looks like your back to your LIES, Kathy! 😉

          • Kathy

            You’re something, that is for sure.

            Where are my lies? I never lie. Ever.

          • suz norkan

            And suz NEVER ‘admitted that I don’t do science!’ Ha! Missed me and then you LIED about it too!

            You lie here and you’ve lied before!

          • Kathy

            Please, post links to my lies.

            I’ll wait.

          • suz norkan

            No need! I just showed you lied about me, and you can find the remainder on your own! You know what they are! 😉

          • Kathy

            And she has nothing to back up her claims. Typical Suz. SUZ DON’T DO CITATIONS! You told me that once.

          • suz norkan

            Not playing the superficial citation games you all engage in in your ‘scientism’ blogs, hardly correlates to my not doing ‘science!’

            So you either LIE, or you misunderstood, of which I’ll now learn if you have the integrity that you claim, and that an apology to me will be forthcoming!

            See my previous answer regarding ‘citation standoffs’ to you just moments ago, as your comment above appears to be a dup!

          • Kathy

            You know, Suz, when you don’t have any valid information to back up your claims, and then you resort to personal attacks, it really makes the case for us about why vaccines have to be mandated. It is because this is the typical behavior of those who oppose vaccines. There is no valid reason to be opposed to vaccinating children. None. You have nothing. So, go ahead and put down science and call me names. It’s not going to upset me. It just verifies, in my mind and I am sure the minds of many others, how you have nothing on your side.

          • suz norkan

            Aw! The LIAR’S a sore loser so she lies even more.

            I respond to YOUR personal attacks and frequent LIES, Kathy!

            And untainted, unadulterated scientific evidence and p.r. says there IS much to be concerned about regarding vax injuries and death.

            So your coercion and mandates are more about your mysophobic fears, lack of education, lack of sophistication, lack of tolerance to diversity and desire to control others, while aiding greed and corruption.

            I don’t call you names until you draw first blood, Kathy! You did, and then I fight fire with fire.

            Peculiar, all the ‘many others’ on ‘my side’ that disagree with YOU!

          • Kathy

            Suz don’t do science is my opinion. What you once wrote to me is “SUZ DON’T DO CITATIONS!”

          • suz norkan

            YOUR opinion means nothing to me!

            So you erred. You thought I said I don’t do science, when in fact you likely read one of the numerous times I said, ‘I don’t waste time on futile citation stalemates or evidence exchanges!’

            Acceptance of your apology will be dependent on my perception of your sincerity!

          • Kathy

            My opinion stands. You don’t do science. Therefore, not a lie.

          • suz norkan

            You are a LIAR so your opinion means NOTHING!

            And you may play at ‘scientism’ on your biased blogs, but you surely know nothing of valid science, darlin’!

          • Proponent

            (*looks over shoulder at reflection in mirror*)

            ‘Well, what do you think, Kathy?

            These skinny jeans make my butt look big or..?’

            😉

          • suz norkan

            Off topic, ridiculous and WITLESS as usual, parrot Pro! 😉

          • Kathy

            You don’t think water is toxic? My neighbor is an ultramarathoner. You can ask her about water toxicity. She nearly had a stroke from water.

          • Sonja Henie

            A classmate of my daughter died of water intoxication.

          • Kathy
          • suz norkan

            Aw! Guess she foolishly diluted blood levels. Water is NOT toxic. Bwa ha ha! 😉

          • Kathy

            Water can kill. Better get on the ban water wagon! Ban everything toxic!!

            http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-drinking-too-much-water-can-kill/

          • suz norkan

            Of course water can kill! But it sure ain’t toxic to humans! Har d har!

            And you should realize after all this time, I won’t open links from you opponents! No matter! I have my own VALID science sources, thank you, darlin’! 😉

          • Kathy

            Nothing is toxic in all doses. That’s the point. And I know you won’t open links. SUZ DON’T DO SCIENCE!

          • suz norkan

            Suz IS science! Suz doesn’t practice the ‘scientism’ that yall CALL science!

          • Kathy

            I would call Suz willful ignorance, or a willful desire not to learn

          • suz norkan

            And I call Kathy uneducated, unsophisticated and myopic minded!

          • Boris Ogon

            Suz IS science!

            So are BALB/c mice.

          • suz norkan

            C’est la vie, persona non grata Borings!

          • Jonathan Graham

            The dilution kills

            …and it’s not paracetamol that kills it’s the disregulation of intraglomerular pressure (among other things).

            Dilution of the blood from any fluid would kill,

            …and similarly any drug with a similar antiprostaglandin mechanism would be similarly dangerous.

            In other words folks, suz norkan is ingenuously arguing that it’s not the knife that’s toxic it’s the hole it makes.

          • suz norkan

            No! I’m saying that water is NOT toxic!

          • Jonathan Graham

            But “dilution” the result of the water acting on a person *IS* dangerous. Right? So by your own logic paracetamol isn’t nephrotoxic either. ROFL.

          • suz norkan

            As I said in a near by post; any fluid could have caused the dilution; toxic or NOT! Ooopsie and har d har! 😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            any fluid could have caused the dilution;

            …and any other substance regulating intraglomerular pressure could cause the same hepatotoxic effect.

            So again, all you’ve argued is that nothing is toxic – if you think about what you’re saying – which you aren’t. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            And again, I said that Kathy could ingest as many minute doses of plutonium as she would like; which IS toxic and she’d be poisoned by it’s toxicity; not the fact that it diluted her blood levels!

            I also say that the ridiculous notion of you declaring water to be toxic, which you forced vax pharma propagandists use often to try to scare/confuse individuals regarding the toxicity of chemicals, is foolish and smacks of ‘scientism’ rather than valid science!

            Suz is bored with this game! See if your playmates are in the zone to go a few rounds with ‘ya!

            Have a nice evening, persona non grahmie. 😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            minute doses of plutonium as she would like; which IS toxic and she’d be poisoned by it’s toxicity;

            Sorry, according to Sue Norkan who preaches that it’s not the H2O which kills you but rather the mechanism (dilution) it would also be true that it’s not the plutonium that’s killing anyone it’s the mechanism – free-radicals and gamma rays…and just like how any other diluent would kill a person. Any other gamma emitter/ free radical generator. Would also kill you. Ergo by Sue Norkan’s definitions plutonium is non-toxic.

            also say that the ridiculous notion of you declaring water to be toxic

            It’s not me. There’s a MSDS on water. http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321

            and oh hey it says….

            Toxicity to Animals:
            LD50: [Rat] – Route: oral; Dose: > 90 ml/kg

            All people here are doing is pointing out to you what is patently obvious to any chemist.

            Suz is bored with this game!

            I suppose that’s what happens when you play something you have no possibility of winning. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            And again, I said that Kathy could ingest as many minute doses of plutonium as she would like; which IS toxic and she’d be poisoned by it’s toxicity; not the fact that it diluted her blood levels!

            I also say that the ridiculous notion of you declaring water to be toxic, which you forced vax pharma propagandists use often to try to scare/confuse individuals regarding the toxicity of chemicals, is foolish and smacks of ‘scientism’ rather than valid science!

            Suz is bored with this game! See if your playmates are in the zone to go a few rounds with ‘ya!

            Have a nice evening, persona non grahmie. ;}

            edit: well since graham keeps LYING and adding all kinds of crap I never said, I’ll just leave this here; but this is only one source of the enormous amount of data which I’ve studied,verifying that water is NOT toxic!

            —————

            https://www.cdph.ca.gov/progra

            All chemicals can cause harm at a certain level. When a small amount can be harmful, the chemical is considered toxic. When only a very large amount of the chemical can cause damage, the chemical is considered to be relatively non-toxic.

            caption from pg. 2

            “Toxic”

            and “hazardous”

            are not the same

            ——————

            and I’ll just leave graham ranting and LYING away to his own devices

          • suz norkan

            Have a nice evening, persona non grahmie. ;}

            edit: well since graham keeps LYING and adding all kinds of crap I never said, I’ll just leave this here; but this is only one source of the enormous amount of data which I’ve studied,verifying that water is NOT toxic!

            —————

            All chemicals can cause harm at a certain level. When a small amount can be harmful, the chemical is considered toxic. When only a very large amount of the chemical can cause damage, the chemical is considered to be relatively non-toxic.

            caption from pg. 2

            “Toxic”

            and “hazardous”

            are not the same

            ——————

            and I’ll just leave graham ranting and LYING away to his own devices

          • suz norkan
          • Jonathan Graham

            graham keeps LYING and adding all kinds of crap I never said

            I’m merely pointing out that plutonium and paracetamol are, up to this point in your definitions qualify as non-toxic. Go ahead and re-read if you need to.

            the enormous amount of data which I’ve studied,verifying that water is NOT toxic!

            Actually all that passage says is “relatively non-toxic” in English that means “not as toxic as other more toxic things”. So the writer seems to understand what is meant by “water is toxic at sufficiently high dosages”.

            I’ll also point out that you are arguing that people like myself and the chemists that make up the MSDS sheets are using the word “toxic” improperly. However this passage doesn’t make your point, nor even if we are to assume from the phrase “Toxic and Hazardous are not the same”. Assuming that the writer is speaking generally and not to some specific context it still doesn’t restrict the usage of the word toxic. While the term “car” and “vehicle” are not the same you can still replace the former with the later (properly inflected) in a wide variety of cases.

            As for your passage? Were I to guess it’s talking about how these are defined in terms of something specific like some set of regulations which use the terms “hazardous” and “toxic” as indicators of levels of toxicity. So your argument, as usual means nothing since nobody hear appears to be arguing for example that the EPA classifies water as “toxic waste”.

            The usage of “toxic” in regard to water as far as I’ve seen chemists and pro-vaccination folk here use it. Is well within it’s accepted definition. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            Too WRONG, ‘off topic’ [plutonium and acetaminophen?] [and long]! Didn’t read!

            Bwa haha! But ‘toxic waste’ water is WASTE water, NOT DRINKING water!

            As I replied to Kathy, water can be dangerous, hazardous and fatal!

            Do you forced vaxers LIE when telling readers that ‘even water is toxic!’ Dang skippy you do!

            WATER IS NOT TOXIC which is easily scientifically verifiable by researching ‘valid’ chemical sites, and NOT the sites these wannabe scientists [fools practicing ‘scientism’ on their blogs] frequent!

            Msds on water [msds, which I used in my younger years in my career] section 2 shows- water: ‘toxicological data on ingredients: NOT APPLICABLE’

            Further, toxicology reports are NEGATIVE for those with symptoms or fatality due to hyponatremia!

            Please don’t let these propagandists dupe you with their chemical duplicity!

            Do your OWN research, while NOT relying on the disinformation of those practicing ‘scientism’ on their blogs and with an agenda!

            The lesson here, boys and girls, is that a REAL chemist will tell you that WATER IS NOT TOXIC to humans [and most organisms] as even proved by the LEVELS of TOXICITY used here in the U.S.

            WATER IS NOT TOXIC and again I’ll let Graham continue his incessant lying and misleading twaddle as above, while left to his own devices! 😉

          • suz norkan
          • Jonathan Graham

            ‘off topic’ [plutonium and acetaminophen?]

            You are the person who brought up plutonium. So were you being off-topic there?

            Didn’t read! Bwa haha!

            That’s the signal that we have Suz cornered.

            Msds on water section 2 shows- water: ‘toxicological data on ingredients: NOT APPLICABLE’

            Are you now trying to be deceptive instead of just ignorant? Sure water doesn’t have “ingredients”. What does that have to do with toxicity? I’ve already linked you to a MSDS: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321 which shows that water has a known level of toxicity. I find it interesting that you want to quibble on the use of the term “toxic” but seem ok with acknowledging that water has “toxicity”.

            Further, toxicology reports are NEGATIVE for those with symptoms or fatality due to hyponatremia!

            Yawn, why would that be relevant? A toxicology report is the result of a collection of tests on hair, urine and blood. Do you think these reports define the term? If so, then you also believe that nothing was toxic before it appeared on a toxicology report. Which is pretty silly.

            is that a REAL chemist will tell you that WATER IS NOT TOXIC to humans

            …at the levels most people ingest it. At higher levels it is toxic. Hence we know it’s toxicity level ( > 90 ml/kg in animals ).

            You don’t really seem to have anything resembling a point here. In fact you appear to be saying exactly what most of the pro-vaccine folk are saying here. Glad you agree with us.

          • suz norkan

            Nope! I replied to Kathy’s dose ‘barfism’ and equated the non toxicity of water to the toxicity of plutonium!

            Again, the rest of your ridiculousness is unintelligible and not worth wasting my time on your ridiculous lies and disinformation!

            NO idiot! At high levels it can be fatal! The ingredients do NOT change. WATER IS NOT TOXIC and I NEVER agree with liars like you!

            Your rants are senseless, persona non grahamie! 😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            Plutonium was not off topic for me!

            Then it wasn’t off topic for me and it’s entirely reasonable for me to talk about paracetamol.

            is unintelligible

            No, this is just how you try to get out of arguments you have lost.

            at high levels, ingested water can be fatal!

            exactly what all the pro-vaccine folk are saying. Thanks for agreeing with us. 🙂

            it does NOT change the fact that WATER IS NOT TOXIC!

            Given that MSDS refer to the “Toxicity” there seems to be nothing wrong with saying that “Water can be toxic.” or “Water can be toxic at certain levels.”

            I don’t agree to the lies of liars like you

            By all means point out where I have lied – quote the exact portion of my text. I’ll be happy to apologize for anywhere where I have deliberately uttered an untruth. I won’t be able to apologize for your ignorance though – deliberate or otherwise. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            Nah! The plutonium was enough to show Kathy the toxicity of plutonium compared to the ‘non toxicity’ of water!

            Your entire puerile posting is a laundry list of deceit, lies and childish misrepresentations of your opponents, since you lack the intellect to comprehend consecutively written conceptualizations.

            You to me; “Glad you agree with us.” Hmm! Yet I have NOT!
            Just the most recent example of how you astroBRATS try to twist the considerations of others simply to give the illusion that readers should give priority to your povs.

            You’re talking kidney crap and don’t even know the mechanics of hyponatremia!

            Msds on water:
            Water 7732-18-5 100
            Toxicological Data on Ingredients: Not applicable.

            The msds is showing no toxicity, because it’s NOT TOXIC!

            And perhaps we should get rid of all those ‘non-toxic’ definitions in those pesky dictionaries!

            OXFORD -Definition of non-toxic in English:

            non-toxic

            Pronunciation: /nɒnˈtɒksɪk/

            ADJECTIVE

            Not poisonous or toxic:

            non-toxic waste

            Stop being ridiculous! Again, go play your infantile games with your astroBRAT pals, because you are persona non grata to suz!

            I’m only here to briefly dispel an untruth that you forced vax pharma propagandists use far to often to try to sway the public perception regarding toxicity levels of the many toxins in meds and vax; i.e. the dose is the poison! See below!

            “Paracelsus, the 16th century scientist known largely for establishing the role of chemistry in medicine came up with the concept that everything can be poisonous, or not, depending on the dose. Modern chemistry has since gravitated away from this belief.”

            The other ludicrous lie from you pharma propagandists is that even ‘water is toxic!’ It’s NOT! No matter how much you all like to lie that it is, WATER IS NON TOXIC!

          • Jonathan Graham

            The plutonium was enough to show Kathy the toxicity of plutonium compared to the ‘non toxicity’ of water!

            According to your earlier examples – mechanism: “it’s not the water it’s the dilution” and generality: “any other diluant would have the same effect”. Plutonium and water both fit the bill as non-toxic under those definitions you gave.

            Since then you’ve changed your argument to be about quantity. Effectively that plutonium is more toxic than water. Again something everyone here agrees on. The only difference between you and the chemists is that you reserve the word “toxic” for something that is harmful in some arbitrarily defined quantity. The rest of us can understand that water has, like the MSDS say a level at which it is toxic and a level at which it is not.

            You to me; “Glad you agree with us.” Hmm! Yet I have NOT!

            …and that was said right after something you do agree with. Hence I’m telling the truth and you are lying. 🙂

            Toxicological Data on Ingredients: Not applicable.

            The msds is showing no toxicity, because it’s NOT TOXIC!

            See I’ve already pointed out your error in reading the MSDS and pointed you to the part of the MSDS where the toxicity of water is mentioned and provided you several links to that MSDS. So I have to assume that you’re just trying to be deceptive now. Although probably the only person you’re fooling is yourself.

            Seriously Sue. You can define your words any way you choose but it’s ingenuous to a) insist the rest of the world follows you and b) consider other usages incorrect or deceptive when you clearly understand what we mean when we say them.

          • suz norkan

            Yep! Any fluid/liquid diluting sodium levels in the blood can cause fatality on the merit of ‘dilution’ alone, without being TOXIC!

            The rest of your rant, is too long AND I’m sure, as always, contains more of your ridiculous lies, so didn’t read!

            To readers: WATER IS NON TOXIC!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Any fluid/liquid diluting sodium levels in the blood can cause fatality

            So what’s wrong with calling this the ‘toxicity’ just like the MSDS does?

            The rest of your rant, is too long

            more likely you just can’t handle the truth.

          • suz norkan

            Water 7732-18-5 100

            Toxicological Data on Ingredients: Not applicable.

            Now get back on topic or go play with your astroBRAT friends where the topic IS the toxicity of the NON toxic, persona non grata!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Toxicological Data on Ingredients: Not applicable.

            Because this is where the composition of the substance is discussed. What would you say about the toxicology of the components of water? Not much – hence there’s nothing to say here. Now section 11 gives the real toxicological information and we see…

            Section 11: Toxicological Information
            Toxicity to Animals:
            LD50: [Rat] – Route: oral; Dose: > 90 ml/kg

            So again, the question is why isn’t it reasonable to use the same language the MSDS does? A question Sue can never seem to answer From a document Sue can never seem to read past section 2. 🙂

            http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321

          • suz norkan

            “Very often people compare poisons based on their LD50’s and base decisions about the safety of a chemical based on this number. This is an over-simplified approach to comparing chemicals because the LD50 is simply one point on the dose-response curve that reflects the potential of the compound to cause death.”

            Now this subject is about mandatory vax and NOT ld 50 in rats regarding the non toxicity of water!

            Stay on topic or go play with your astroBRAT friends where commenters may be discussing the inefficiency of ld 50 rather than MANDATORY VAX!

            You’re on the WRONG commentary, persona non grata grahamie! And water is NON TOXIC!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Very often people compare poisons based on their LD50’s and base decisions about the safety of a chemical based on this number. This is an over-simplified approach to comparing chemicals because the LD50 is simply one point on the dose-response curve that reflects the potential of the compound to cause death.

            Except I’m not attempting to compare the relative toxicity of two substances. So this quote isn’t relevant. Again people here appear to be saying “Is it reasonable to call water ‘toxic at certain dosages’ or to talk about the ‘toxicity of water’? Especially when considering that the MSDS does exactly that:

            Section 11: Toxicological Information

            Toxicity to Animals:

            LD50: [Rat] – Route: oral; Dose: > 90 ml/kg

            http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321

            However this is a question that you can only pretend to answer. All you claims of lies, and off topic and calling things “gibberish” are just defense mechanisms to avoid talking about the question. Either it’s reasonable for us to use the term we are using in the way we are using it or it’s not.

            Please try to argue to address that point, or concede. Whichever.

          • suz norkan

            I don’t ‘concede’ to LIES! You CONTINUE to be ‘off topic, graham!

            Truth! Levels of toxicity including a well defined level of a NON TOXIC category, with NON meaning NOT!

            non·tox·ic

            nänˈtäksik/Submit

            adjective

            adjective: non-toxic

            not poisonous or toxic.

            Ld50 is unreliable and especially moot in this case, but it’s graham who keeps contesting it in the dihydrogen monoxide msds; falsely claiming that we debate ‘toxicity to toxicity’, when in fact I counter ‘toxic to NON TOXIC!’

            http://www.dhmo.org/msds/MSDS-DHMO-Kemp.pdf

            Oh dear! Toxicity in level 4 shows it may irritate eyes, wrinkle skin and warns NOT to inhale it!

            Graham has become persona non grata due to his childish spam and lies!

            To readers; don’t get caught up in the dihydrogen monoxide [water] HOAX and the pharma propaganda that even ‘water is toxic!’

            It’s NOT, unless toxins like lead [Flint] or other toxins [pesticides] are leaching into the water supplies!

            WATER IS NON TOXIC!

          • Jonathan Graham

            I don’t ‘concede’ to LIES!

            You don’t seem very good at pointing out where someone is lying either so this is problematic to anyone attempting to have a conversation with you.

            There are levels of toxicity including a well defined level of a NON TOXIC category, with NON meaning NOT!

            So can a higher dose of a substance – say sulfuric acid – be said to be “more toxic” than a lower dose? Can a higher purity be said to be “more toxic” than a lower purity?

            Oh dear! Toxicity in level 4 shows it may irritate eyes, wrinkle skin and warns NOT to inhale it!

            “level 4”. Do you mean “section 4”?

            Ld50 is unreliable

            Unreliable in what way? All you’ve posted is a quote which states that depending solely on the LD50 to determine the relative toxicity of two different substances is over-simplified. Which is, as mentioned before irrelevant to the idea that it’s acceptable to refer to water as “toxic at sufficiently high dosages”.

            To readers; don’t get caught up in the dihydrogen monoxide [water] hoax & the pharma propaganda that even ‘water is toxic!’

            Congratulations on reaching levels of narcissism actually exceeding Lowell’s.

            WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            I’ll just point out that all that all of us pro-vaccination folk agree. It’s just that we understand that “NON-TOXIC” is just a label that refers to a level of toxicity low-enough that it takes an extreme dose to cause harm.

          • suz norkan

            Again, too absurd, long and ‘off topic’! Didn’t read!

            Even as “Understanding Toxic Substances” [link I previously provided] [put out by Ca. Dept. of Public Health, Dept. of Industrial Relations, in conjunction with HESIS, LOHP, CAL/OSHA] warns NOT to do, Graham erringly continues to confuse ‘hazard and fatal’ like they are synonymous to ‘toxicology and levels of toxicology!’

            One may laughingly then ask Graham that if he considers water to be toxic, what would he consider to be ‘non toxic’ as the term DOES exist and is a valid term!

            Toxicology reports for autopsies done on those who’ve died from hyponatremia will show NEGATIVE for toxins, since water is NOT toxic, therefore NO TOXINS were found in the body! Cause of death was due to decreased sodium levels in the blood due to dilution by a substance; toxic or NOT!

            I’ve never said that water does NOT kill! I’ve said that ‘water is NOT toxic!’

            Graham is persona non grata, who immaturely and ridiculously remains ‘off topic’ because he refuses to admit that in today’s chemical world [as countless current chemists have repudiated Paracelsus] that many substances are categorized as NON TOXIC, of which WATER is certainly one!

            I imagine Graham also practices MAGIC, as did Paracelsus!

            Graham is the one who has foolishly continued off topic to persist with his rant that water is toxic! Although it seems as though he’s finally come to his senses and conceded that water is non toxic, thus allowing readers to again get back to the subject of mandatory vax [which DO have verifiable toxins in the ingredients] WITHOUT having to page through his lengthy, off topic spam!

            Readers; WATER IS NON TOXIC!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Graham erringly continues to confuse ‘hazard and fatal’ like they are synonymous to ‘toxicology and levels of toxicity!’

            I’m not confusing anything. I’m using the terms in the same way the MSDS does. The toxicity of water is right there in Section 11. So it seems reasonable to talk about the toxicity of water. Do you disagree?

            You also can’t seem to answer the question: “Can a higher dose of a substance – say sulfuric acid – be said to be “more toxic” than a lower dose? Can a higher purity be said to be “more toxic” than a lower purity?”

            Toxicology reports

            As I’ve explained earlier. Unless you are asserting that nothing is toxic until it appears on a toxicology report then it seems unreasonable to believe that such a report defines the term.

            One may laughingly then ask Graham that if he considers water to be toxic

            I’ve already answered this in my last but but I’ll do so in a little more detail here: Unqualified words like “toxic” refer to a negative outcome with a common dosage. Similarly the words “non-toxic” refer to a lack of a negative outcome for an common dosage. On product labels these probably refer to a number of different standards as to how a common dosage is measured. So, as far as I see virtually everyone here agrees that water is non-toxic in the ordinary sense of the term. However Suz seems to have a problem with us talking about the toxicity of water. As if the word “toxicity” can only be used for things where the common dosage is not harmful. Even though things like the MSDS show this to be a needlessly prescriptive usage.

          • suz norkan

            Too OFF TOPIC! Didn’t read!

            Kathy brought up the outdated quote of Paracelsus which most REAL chemists [not those like Graham, Kathy, et al, who practice ‘scientism’ and believe what craptor tells them on his blogs] have repudiated, along with his practice of magic and his OTHER UNSCIENTIFIC or erred science beliefs!

            I replied with a comment about the lie of ‘water toxicity’ that yall often use! End of story! Time to get back to the subject of vax, Graham!

            So if I ‘disagree’ about it being ‘reasonable’ to discuss the NON toxicity of water, it’s because the ‘NON toxicity of water’ is NOT the subject!

            Further, suz would be happy to discuss the inefficiency of ld50 on rats [rats don’t puke plus so much more 😉 ] such as troubles in acquiring ‘long term effect’, and a whole host of other problems in the reports of valid chemists who deal with deadly toxins [pesticides] and dose curve relationships daily, and state that ld50 in animals in ineffective.

            This is another reason ld50 is being phased out and replaced with more sensitive tec, especially now that chemists are focused on a whole other toxicological quandary; nanotoxicology!

            Ld50 on rats is becoming just as outdated as Paracelsus and his ‘dose quote!’

            The msds shows there is NO toxicity in water as you read the entire data sheet, but Graham clings to his erred perception of the ld50 in rats.

            Chemists also fully recognize LEVELS of toxicity among toxins, so again, msds are often general and bare bones, to quickly alert workers to all types of hazards! If you look at the color code [top right] shows 0 0 0!

            Since chemists created the terms for NON TOXIC, [not suz, as Graham would like to misrepresent to readers] I’m sure that when a chemist labels water as NON TOXIC that it is NOT TOXIC for all intents and purposes, in THIS reality and THIS dimension!

            Graham would have to become educated on toxicology and toxicity levels before I would waste my time arguing such issues with him. He remains very confused over the terms of toxic and non toxic, and his misunderstanding that because a thing causes death, that it is toxic.

            Graham’s erred thinking is that a person places 5 NON TOXIC stones on my chest, and I don’t die, then they are indeed ‘non toxic!’ When 500 of the same stones are placed on my chest and I’m fatally crushed, he now considers the stones TOXIC!

            He is misinterpreting the ‘water’ influence of hyponatremia!

            I could elaborate further and take MORE of the readers time to answer Graham’s LUDICROUS questions, but I WON’T! Sulfuric acid, ld50 on rats and drinking water is NOT the subject!

            Finally, since chemists consider water non toxic there is NO need to discuss the toxicity of water, especially, again since it’s not the subject of this present commentary!

            No one within this commentary is talking about the toxicity of water but Graham and Graham remains off topic!

          • Jonathan Graham

            The msds shows there is NO toxicity in water

            …yet it gives a figure for the toxicity of water in animals. So unless you’re using “no toxicity” in some idiosyncratic way then you’re incorrect.

            Graham’s erred thinking is that a person places 5 NON TOXIC stones on my chest, and I don’t die, then they are indeed ‘non toxic!’ When 500 of the same stones are placed on my chest and I’m fatally crushed, he now considers the stones TOXIC!

            Generally the terms toxicity and poison – in the context we are discussion – talk about something that is taken into the human body.

            So again you avoid the question. Does the toxicity of something like sulfuric acid generally increase with dose? What about purity?

          • suz norkan

            One of the msds showed an ‘ld50 in rats’ for water which as previously mentioned is unreliable, and you ignored the entire remainder of the msds showing that water has no health risk, except for pruned skin and extra peeing!

            The 2nd msds that I provided showed no ld50 for rats, and showed 0 health risk for toxicity!

            I’m NOT ‘incorrect’ and NO one is ‘discussing’ the NON toxicity of water but you, [there is no WE discussing] while you remain ‘off topic!’

            I certainly understand the term toxic, but I doubt you do; which is why I gave the examples!

            Stop acting like you know what your talking [you DON’T]! Chemists are laughing at you! Case in point: you childishly yet smugly suggest this,

            *”Generally the terms toxicity and poison – in the context we are discussion – talk about something that is taken into the human body.” *

            yet that’s what nanoparticles and nanotoxicology is about!

            I’m avoiding no discussion of sulfuric acid since that is certainly NOT the topic of this commentary!

            Go play ‘pretend scientist’ on your ‘scientism’ blogs and stop DERAILING the subject of THIS commentary!

            And good to know that you finally conceded to readers that water is considered by chemists to be non toxic!

          • Jonathan Graham

            And good to know that you finally conceded to readers that water is considered by chemists to be non toxic!

            Actually what I said is that everyone here has always said that water is non-toxic. In the sense that it takes extreme doses for there to be toxicity.

            One of the msds showed an ‘ld50 in rats’ for water which as I’d stated previously, ‘ld50’ is not as reliable as current tec replacing ‘ld50’ with better sensitivity for dose curve toxicity!

            It would be interesting experience to talk to you about something you read that you actually understand. Like just about any measure there are competing metrics, as early as 1998 the OECD called for new methods. As you say these are all dose/response methods – so they would all produce some value for water. So thank you for admitting, albeit inadvertently that all your commentary about LD50 is irrelevant.

            I’m ‘avoiding’ NO discussion of sulfuric acid

            You are avoiding the question. Sorry that’s what it means when you deliberately don’t answer. Again, does the toxicity of something like sulfuric acid generally increase with dose? What about purity?.

            I’m sure most people see that if you answer that question, you have lost this argument. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            The one who LOST [and looks childishly ridiculous] is you!

            No one was discussing the toxicity of water but YOU, when you become OFF TOPIC in your misrepresentation of a reply I made to Kathy! You proceeded to claim that ‘water is toxic!’

            To readers; WATER IS NON TOXIC and graham is a chemist wannabe who practices ‘scientism’ on fake science blogs!

            To save myself some time, I repeat the following;
            ———
            ‘And good to know that you finally conceded to readers that water is considered by chemists to be non toxic!

            One of the msds showed an ‘ld50 in rats’ for water which as I’d stated previously, ‘ld50’ is not as reliable as current tec replacing ‘ld50’ with better sensitivity for dose curve toxicity!

            I’m ‘avoiding’ NO discussion of sulfuric acid!’
            ———
            You must have THIS commentary confused with craptor, science b.s. & meds, or 2 half brains! Perhaps they’re kicking around
            ‘sulfuric acid’ over there!

            Go play over on your FAKE science [scientism] blogs, persona non grata, grahamie, or stay here, but STAY ON TOPIC!

          • Jonathan Graham

            “Everyone here!” Who is ‘everyone here!’

            Those of us in the pro-vaccine camp who use the toxicity of water as an illustration. You seem to claim that there are lots of people who use this illustration.

            ‘And good to know that you finally conceded to readers that water is considered by chemists to be non toxic!

            Everyone that I’ve seen in the pro-vaccine camp has always considered this to be true. If you wish to point out someone who doesn’t say this feel free.

            I’m ‘avoiding’ NO discussion of sulfuric acid!’

            Well you’re avoiding answering my question in which I used sulfuric acid as an example of a toxic substance. You’re doing this because you know you lose the argument when you do answer it. Running away is your right don’t let me stop you. 🙂

            ‘ld50’ is not as reliable as current tec replacing ‘ld50’ with better sensitivity for dose curve toxicity!

            Thanks again for pointing out that whatever you replace LD50 with it will continue to show toxicity for water.

          • suz norkan

            You’re on your own there, Graham! The only one who remains obsessively OFF TOPIC over the NON TOXICITY OF WATER, is YOU! There is no ‘WE!’ The childishness is all YOU!

            The topic of this commentary is MANDATORY VAX!

            I run from nothing, you OFF TOPIC brat, and certainly NOT from the likes of you. I haven’t even fully read/considered any of your futile and feeble attempts to save your arrogant OFF TOPIC face while you present some insignificant OFF TOPIC superficial probe of sulfuric acid! I’ll NOT concern myself with your OFF TOPIC trivia at this occurrence since sulfuric acid is NOT the subject.

            This is an article and commentary on MANDATORY VAX!

            Lastly, you again show what a lying and deluded astroBRAT you are, since I’ve never suggested such a lie. All anyone has to do is read your crap above, and over the course of this thread to see how you can’t even keep your lies and stories straight!

            And since chemists and scientists concur that WATER IS NON TOXIC, more sensitive tests for toxicity will continue to show that WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            However, again, the NON TOXICITY OF WATER is NOT the SUBJECT here, and you remain foolishly OFF TOPIC, you little astroBRAT and persona non grata Graham!

            Do try to focus and stop humiliating yourself!

            To remind you, the TOPIC HERE is MANDATORY VAX!

          • Jonathan Graham

            I run from nothing

            …except a tiny question: Does the toxicity of something like sulfuric acid generally increase with dose? What about purity?

            You run from this because you know that it makes my point.

            more sensitive tests for toxicity will continue to show

            …water having a level of toxicity. Which is what is being discussed. A quote from me from about three days ago talking about MSDS

            which shows that water has a known level of toxicity.

            Water is toxic in the sense that it has a dosage at which it is toxic. It is non-toxic in the sense that such a level is well beyond ordinary exposure.

            I hope this helps you figure out what myself, the authors of MSDS sheets and most people I see who talk about the toxicity of water here on Disqus are saying.

          • suz norkan

            Too OFF TOPIC like Graham! Didn’t read!

            You’re on your own there, Graham! The only one who remains obsessively OFF TOPIC over the NON TOXICITY OF WATER, is YOU! There is no ‘WE!’ The childishness is all YOU!

            The topic of this commentary is MANDATORY VAX!

            I run from nothing, you OFF TOPIC brat, and certainly NOT from the likes of you. I haven’t even fully read/considered any of your futile and feeble attempts to save your arrogant OFF TOPIC face while you present some insignificant OFF TOPIC superficial probe of sulfuric acid! I’ll NOT concern myself with your OFF TOPIC trivia at this occurrence since sulfuric acid is NOT the subject.

            This is an article and commentary on MANDATORY VAX!

            Lastly, you again show what a lying and deluded astroBRAT you are, since I’ve never suggested such a lie. All anyone has to do is read your crap above, and over the course of this thread to see how you can’t even keep your lies and stories straight!

            And since chemists and scientists concur that WATER IS NON TOXIC, more sensitive tests for toxicity will continue to show that WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            However, again, the NON TOXICITY OF WATER is NOT the SUBJECT here, and you remain foolishly OFF TOPIC, you little astroBRAT and persona non grata Graham!

            Do try to focus and stop humiliating yourself!

            To remind you, the TOPIC HERE is MANDATORY

          • Jonathan Graham

            I run from nothing,

            Except this question: Does the toxicity of something like sulfuric acid generally increase with dose? What about purity?

            Considering you claim to have studied an “enormous amount of data” (actual quote from Suz Norkan) it seems strange that an answer to such a question doesn’t roll of your tongue.

          • suz norkan

            OFF TOPIC! Not playing your childish games. Save it for when sulfuric acid relevant to the topic!

            This is an article and commentary about MANDATORY VAX!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Does the toxicity of something like sulfuric acid generally increase with dose? What about purity?

          • suz norkan

            See comment # 2589863294!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Does the toxicity of something like mercury generally increase with dose? What about purity?

          • suz norkan

            See comment # 2589864467!

          • Jonathan Graham

            So you don’t believe that the toxicity of mercury is relevant to the topic of vaccination?

          • suz norkan

            See comment # 2589865405! You’re OFF TOPIC! This topic is mandatory vax!

          • Jonathan Graham

            So any potential toxins in vaccines are also unrelated to mandatory vaccination? Good to know. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            YOU’RE OFF TOPIC! I’m not playing your childish games. Stop derailing the discussion with your foolishness!

            This is an article and commentary about MANDATORY VAX!

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m actually showing that your whining “off topic” is a smokescreen. Clearly if something is potentially toxic is in vaccines it is relevant to mandatory vaccination.

          • suz norkan

            Too little too late! I’m wont engage in your disruption of the discussion and your foolish off topic games! See comment # 2589864467!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Like I said: Smokescreen. Not to mention that the application should have been obvious to a block of wood. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            I don’t see where I wrote smokescreen anywhere. I wrote OFF TOPIC!

            Not one reader is buying your superficial sulfuric acid crap!

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m not talking about sulfuric acid. I’m talking about mercury – the toxicity of which you appear to claim is irrelevant to a discussion of mandatory vaccination. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            You’re playing games! Get some of your astrobrats to play and try to remain on the subject.

            I only wanted to make sure that readers realized that your lie of water being toxic was false, since water is non toxic!

            Nightie night, persona non grata Grahamie! 😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, I’m asking a clear and pertinent question. You, on the other hand are desperately trying to avoid answering it.

          • You may make her head implode.

          • AutismDadd

            Graham cures insomnia and constipation in one visit, but not necessarily in that order.

          • Boris Ogon

            You’re OFF TOPIC! This topic is mandatory vax!

            MODZ!!11!1!

            As I’ve already noted, you could be outwitted by a crude Markov chain generator fueled by your own words if anyone thought it worth the effort to seed the text base.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Props. I’ve used Markov chains to do textual analysis to detect sock-puppets. Similar to the adjacency matrix approach used by the Gutenberg project for authorship analysis.

          • Boris Ogon

            Oh, I have something quite specific in mind. I’d need @cr4zyivan:disqus to whomp up the comment base, though (and it’s really primitive with handling 8 bit characters, etc.).

          • suz norkan

            Too late to the party, Borings!

          • Jenny Higgs

            Well – it isn’t since compounds aren’t elements.

            😉

          • Jonathan Graham

            Absolutely. The toxicity of thiomersal is going to be different than elemental mercury. However I could have put anything in place of Hg. The point is that the obvious flaw in Suz’s argument, that toxicity is not necessarily dose dependent. Is that we end up with an entirely useless definition of the term toxic. Since it would allow for us to have substances which are toxic but exist at doses which would never be responsible for harming anyone ever and far less responsible for harm than “non-toxic” things.

            Suz is pretty easy to figure out. She deliberately keeps part of her argument hidden because that way she can feel superior when people attack an argument which doesn’t exactly match the one she has in her head and feels justified in persisting to believe in it. She also obviously cheats a bit by altering her secret argument. Eventually this results in her argument being one of an exceptionally idiosyncratic definition of some term. Which is, of course what happened here.

          • Jenny Higgs

            Sure. I was just pre-emptively dealing with the 9th grade Chemistry failure brigade.

          • Boris Ogon

            Does the toxicity of something like mercury generally increase with dose?

            Define your terms (and see Clarkson and Magos).

          • Boris Ogon

            And since chemists and scientists concur that WATER IS NON TOXIC, more sensitive tests for toxicity will continue to show that WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            “Concur?” Oh, the irony. Hey, cranks like to play the MSDS game, right?

            Toxicity to Animals:
            LD50: [Rat] – Route: oral; Dose: >90 ml/kg

          • suz norkan

            Read through the 6 days of ‘Graham SOUP,’ and you’ll see that this started by my telling Kathy how current science has moved away from Paracelsus, his magical beliefs AND his dose b.s.

            Grahamie jumped in, gung ho, but uneducated as usual! You’ll be able to research for yourself that ld50 in rats in now considered inefficient to more current & sensitive methods of learning toxicity and toxicity ‘levels’ & that water is NON TOXIC!

            I’ll NOT rehash 6 days worth of Graham’s feeble attempt to save face! As I said during his day 1, jumping in like he knew what he was puking up, I made a brief reply to Kathy’s Paracelsus. The remainder of Graham’s SIX DAYS IS OFF TOPIC!

            My only reason for reply, was to assure readers that WATER IS NON TOXIC!
            ———–
            And since chemists and scientists concur that WATER IS NON TOXIC, more sensitive tests for toxicity will continue to show that WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            “Concur?” Oh, the irony. Hey, cranks like to play the MSDS game, right?

            Toxicity to Animals:

            LD50: [Rat] – Route: oral; Dose: >90 ml/kg
            ———-

            Maybe you ‘scientism’ astroBRATS like playing the msds ld50 in rats games, like Graham, who’ll exaggerate and lie to save himself from humiliation.

            Which is why I showed that those who work TODAY with labeling levels of toxins, are moving away from the old school ld50 in rats, to newer, more sensitive tec.

            And, YES! Those in ‘SCIENCE,’ NOT ‘scientism’ like yall, agree that WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            That’s what happens when you hit the bars AFTER last call, Borings! You missed the fun, and all you get to do is go home with some prostitute very much like Graham and you astroBRATS!

            Have fun slopping through it all, Borings! I’ve done my due diligence, and am the designated driver. You and Grahamie can remain OFF TOPIC on your own! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            And, YES! Those in ‘SCIENCE,’ NOT ‘scientism’ like yall, agree that WATER IS NON TOXIC!

            You don’t say. I mean, you’re free to try it out for yourself.

            With apologies to Tuli Kupferberg:

            Hyponatremia, hyponatremia, that’s the blood for me.

          • suz norkan

            Aw! Poor, humiliated Borings! I already covered hyponatremia!

            Back to the topic of MANDATORY VAX for you two bozos! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            I already covered hyponatremia!

            Upon a review of your last 100 comments, I take it that you have a novel definition of “covered.” For example,

            a large amount of ingested water during a short amount of time may cause hyponatremia [Ed.—And, y’know, death], it does NOT change the fact that WATER IS NOT TOXIC!

            I take it, as a matter of consistency, that you will readily concede that oral ingestion of elemental Hg is “NOT TOXIC!”

          • suz norkan

            You’re confusing the words ‘NOT TOXIC,’ with NOT THE TOPIC!

            Although they sound similar, the topic remains to be mandatory vax! Have fun boys! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            If only Disqustink supported <blink> tags, Squirtz could have some sort of trifecta of text-based shrieking when combined with the giant blobs of boldface interspersed with full caps.

          • suz norkan

            Vids would be better yet, you obsessed little persona non grata, Borings!

            ‘Realface’ opposed to ‘boldface’ and LOTS of body language like THIS! Bleep! Bleep! Expletive!

            ‘Till next time, you suz obsessed persona non grata Borings! 😉

          • AutismDadd

            Your mechanism is to exhibit mental diarrhea . Blah blah blah. You don’t get to the point either.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I do. You just need to read. 🙂

          • Jenny Higgs

            10 people die every year in the U.S alone from inhaling Oxidane…I’m sure Suz knows this with all her research.

          • Kiko

            “Persona non grata Grahamie” lol

          • sabelmouse

            you reason like a 5 year old.

          • Mike Stevens

            Suz suggests the diseases are safe because of “sanitation and adequate medical care”.

            And you don’t think that reasoning is similar to that of a 5 year old?

            Sabel, you must be having a bad day. I wish you well and a speedy recovery.

          • sabelmouse

            i’ve never read anything by suz indicating such nonsense. you’re dissembling , again.
            or your understanding has reached an all time low.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “i’ve never read anything by suz indicating such nonsense.”

            So you agree that it is pure nonsense to say something like this, Sabelmouse. Good.

            Here it is once again..

            Lawrence McNamara … suz norkan • 2 days ago
            “Because “diseases” are so safe, right?”

            suz norkan … Lawrence McNamara • 2 days ago
            “Right! You got one correct; especially the vpds in areas where there is proper sanitation and adequate medical care available!”

            … and only a few posts above in this very same thread.

          • suz norkan

            In context, I show that vpds are mild [reasons given in my quote] and infer that they’re SAFER than vax, which is ALSO being discussed!

            So when NOT misleading readers & sharp shooting by taking my words out of context, I’ve replied that ‘yes; vpds are safer than the vax supposedly used to prevent them; especially where there is proper sanitation & readily available appropriate medical care!’

            As always, you remain quite the pharma propaganda parrot, parrot Pro!

          • suz norkan

            Thanks sabel! Don’t trouble yourself though, sweetie! It’s not worth it with this bunch of liars!

            Mikey and parrot Pro would like to misinform readers that I feel ‘diseases are safe,’ which is CLEARLY NOT what I’ve said when one CONSIDERS the full context of the discussion.

            Thanks anyway, sabel! 😉

          • sabelmouse

            of course, they leave the context out. who do they think is fooled by this?

          • suz norkan

            The bigotry of their accusations is that they gloss right OVER the comment Lawrence made [shown again, below]!

            If anyone technically said ‘diseases are safe,’ it was Lawrence! Of course they’ll say he commented in sarcasm.

            But when I returned the sarcasm, it’s cherry picked and made into a huge lie, that I said ‘diseases are safe!’

            Right there it is, in black and white! Lawrence said it! NOT suz! Har d har! 😉

            Mwah, sabel! <3

            Lawrence McNamara suz norkan • 3 days ago

            Because “diseases” are so safe, right?

          • sabelmouse

            yup, they do that. as anyone can see quite easily. it does spam up the threat nicely to leave so many useless comments.

          • suz norkan

            Lying and/or misrepresenting the comments of your opponents, since you can’t advance your pov WITHOUT deceit, is on page 2 of the pharma propagandist’s playbook!

            I would NEVER say ‘diseases are safe,’ Mikey! I may opine that today’s vpds are ‘safer’ than the vax that’s purportedly used to prevent them, given today’s standards of better “sanitation and adequate and more readily available medical care!”

            You owe sabel an apology, Mikey! And thanks for your pseudo concern! Har d har!

          • Mike Stevens

            “Lying and/or misrepresenting the comments of your opponents….I would NEVER say ‘diseases are safe,’ Mikey!”

            Let me refresh your abysmally defective and short memory Suz. I’ll quote from the couple of comments upthread…

            Lawrence McNamara: “Because “diseases” are so safe, right?”

            Suz Norkan: “Right! You got one correct; especially the vpds in areas where there is proper sanitation and adequate medical care available!”

            Even a brain dead guppy can see that you, Suz Norkan, are claiming that diseases are safe, especially if there is sanitation and medical care available. That is not something open to any misrepresentation or misinterpretation, Suz.

            Mike Stevens: “Suz suggests the diseases are safe because of “sanitation and adequate medical care”.”

            In fact I was quite lenient on you here Suz. I said you “suggested” the vaccine preventable diseases were safe, when in fact you didn’t merely “suggest” it, you stated it unequivocally.

            Now you and Sabel are calling me a liar for pointing out what you said. The liar is YOU, Suz, but we knew that already.
            And Sabel is just as bad. She is either a liar, or is also a brain dead guppy, with the reading skills to match.

          • suz norkan

            Too absurd! Didn’t read. No one would EVER believe that suz would say ‘diseases are safe!’ I WOULD say ‘that vpds are safer than vax!’

            Anything else from yall is a LIE and of the misconstrued pharma propaganda of “Kiko quoted and Mikey LIED!”

            Have a nice evening, Mikey! 😉

          • Jenny Higgs

            I wonder if sabelmouse can tell us why a cholera vaccine isn’t on the routine vaccine schedule?

          • Chris

            Someone needs to go look up the words morbidity and mortality.

          • suz norkan

            Someone perhaps! Not suz, however!

          • AutismDadd

            Vaccine Roulette

          • Mike Stevens

            Are children resistant to the adverse effects of vaccines, Tristan? Or are adults especially susceptible?
            Because that is essentially what you are saying.

          • Bjorn Fowler

            “Until you do, vaccines must be assumed to be dangerous.”
            This is pretty illogical, vaccines have been present for over 100 years. They have given no reason to believe they are dangerous.

      • Mike Stevens

        I’ve given my 3 kids the entire vaxschedule adjusted for body weight, Tristan.
        Nobody died.
        In fact that exact same process took place among around 4 million kids in the USA last year also. Again, nobody died. Nobody even developed autism as a result.

        • Curtis

          It is happening in Australia RIGHT NOW where anti-vaxxers are getting heir children vaccinated in order to keep them in school or daycare and to receive their child benefits. It is evolving proof of anti-vaxxer hypocrisy. If they TRULY believed that vaccines were deadly or caused autism there is no amount of convenience or money that would cause a normal parent to vaccinate their child. Justthefacts proof of Justin’s dishonesty and false arguments are just icing on the cake.

          • Proponent

            You just cut to the quick of the debate, Curtis.

            Appreciate your response.

          • AutismDadd

            Far too simplistic and basically a worthless opinion.

          • Boris Ogon

            Far too simplistic and basically a worthless opinion.

            White-hot irony coming from someone who thinks the single word “pud” is a perfectly well reasoned reply.

          • AutismDadd

            You disagree? What a pud.

          • Graceds

            Withholding of welfare benefits in exchange for vaccination is classist.
            Why aren’t Australia’s wealthy taxed at a 90 percent rate if they don’t vaccinate?

          • suz norkan

            That’s an excellent point!

          • Bjorn Fowler

            What a good idea, if it brings vaccination rates up, then it’s a perfectly valid thing to do.
            Of course there is the issue that taxes don’t increase based on things you don’t do, at most it would be a fine which are a flat amount. Then there’s the issue of either bankrupting the poor, or not even affecting the rich.
            At the same time, those on welfare are receiving money from the government in order to look after their children. If they’re not vaccinating them, they’re not doing their job.

          • Curtis

            Who cares? There should be penalties for anyone not vaccinating without a medical reason. Philosophical/religious exemptions should be banned worldwide and any outbreaks traced to an anti-vaxxer should have all medical costs for the entire outbreak billed to them. With the information the world has at its fingertips only the mentally disturbed, the extreme low iq and the willfully ignorant are anti-vaxxers.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your thoughts.

          • Graceds

            Withholding of welfare benefits in exchange for vaccination is classist.
            Why aren’t Australia’s wealthy taxed at a 90 percent rate if they don’t vaccinate?

      • Justthefacts

        Millions over the age of 50 have already taken the entire schedule adjusted for body weight. You know nothing of vaccine history. Do you have any idea what the concentrations where in 1960’s and 70’s vaccines? Do you know what the measles vaccine was before the MMR?
        .
        The concentrations of just about everything has been been greatly reduced in modern vaccines. Millions of us older people took concentrations 20 to 200 time higher of everything compared to now an we brought you the modern age with few problems. .
        .
        Any more stupid ideas from you?

  • Lawrence McNamara
    • Lawrence McNamara

      No, we don’t. You’ve made the claim, you provide the proof.

      Because I’ve shown who you are….

      • Then why do you link to an article that speaks fondly of the Pakistani government approach of vaccinating children at gunpoint?

        • Lawrence McNamara

          There you go – but then again, it’s all part of your playbook (as I have posted). You’ll never admit you’re wrong.

          • Won’t I? Where is that in my playbook? I do tell people not to pretend that vaccines are effective for the sake of sounding conciliatory, but it seems odd to criticise someone for exhorting people to be honest.

            Do you not like people being honest Lawrence?

          • Justthefacts

            It’s right here in your playbook, in your own words:
            “nother tip: You should never qualify or defend yourself.
            It actually reinforces your opponent’s belief that their attempt to
            disqualify you is valid and encourages them to continue that same line
            of attack.”
            .
            I really like this disingenuous part:
            .
            “. It is more effective to attack the lack of efficacy of vaccines than it is to attack their lack of safety. ” ” That doesn’t mean you *can’t* focus on the safety angle (although as I say it is generally better to focus on efficacy) but you should never ever yield on the efficacy angle.”
            .
            Since you are committed to lying, you are far from honest.

          • AutismDadd

            As a liar yourself you’d know, twistthefacts

          • AutismDadd

            Yea he should have a handbook like the vac trolls use.

          • Joseph

            What handbook?
            Why didn’t I get my copy?
            Somebody call Big Pharma, I been ROBBED.

          • AutismDadd

            I guess they didn’t know what bridge or rock you lived under.

          • Joseph

            Nah, I have a nice house. Big Pharma shill, right?
            And what bothers me is you might be strongly enough invested in conspiracy theories to believe my comment. *sigh*
            Pity, you’re a good enough person otherwise.
            Well, happy Easter, if you observe it.
            If not, enjoy your day. I need to do some cleaning. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Have some blood to wash off your hands?

          • Joseph

            No, I don’t.
            I’m a fairly peaceful human.
            The cleaning was housework.
            Oh, if you’re trying to get me upset, a hint…
            I’m old. I’ve heard it all. 9 times before, at least. Now I can be upset, but you’ll need to stretch a bit further. That comment just saddened me.
            But have hope. If you have children with autism, there’s a good chance that they’ll mature into people just like me. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Old and senile obviously.

          • Joseph

            Insults don’t phase me, as I think you’ve seen.
            Do you have a constructive comment to make regarding immunization science?

        • João Pedro Santos

          That’s a strawman. We are talking about the American government, not about the Pakistani government.

          • Well no Joao. Lawrence linked to an article that I was referring to.

          • Kathy

            There is nothing in that article about Pakistan. It’s about you.

        • Justthefacts

          I don;t think we can trust you. In your own words:
          “If you explicitly yield the point that vaccines work then you will not
          have achieved anything – at least nothing good anyway. Don’t think that
          by trying to sound conciliatory by yielding on efficacy others will be
          more inclined to hear your point of view on safety. That is the approach
          we have been using for the past several decades and, in case you missed
          it, it has been an abject failure. That doesn’t mean you *can’t* focus
          on the safety angle (although as I say it is generally better to focus
          on efficacy) but you should never ever yield on the
          efficacy angle. Indeed, you should think of it the other way – by
          chipping away at the notion that these things are critical to the
          survival of our species (which is what the propaganda tells people)
          people will be far more likely to listen to arguments about their
          safety.”

          • AutismDadd

            So we should trust twistthefacts….hilarious!

          • suz norkan

            Dang! Tristan sounds like a dadburn hero in the land down under! 🙂

          • Justthefacts

            Don’t trust anyone. Check the facts. Think for yourself.
            You, fanatic “autismdad”, I think you may have a Blind bias.
            .
            I no this doesn’t apply to you, you don’t think at all.

          • AutismDadd

            And you need to get your GED

          • pg

            You “NO this doesn’t apply”? Are you serious?

          • Pretty damning stuff, I’d say.

        • Kathy

          You don’t understand what that was about, do you?

        • Sonja Henie

          You know, the only web sites that talk about vaccinating Pakistani kids at gunpoint are woo sites. Real news websites talk about vaccine workers getting shot. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/9762829/Health-workers-attacked-in-Pakistan-for-polio-vaccinations-We-thought-it-was-the-last-day-of-our-lives.html

          • Kathy

            I googled and found natural news had an article. Picture said it all. Soldier with gun standing in alley, gun pointed to ground, away from children getting polio vaccine. Photo credits go here.

            http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/02/parents-jailed-pakistan-refusing-children-polio-vaccinations#img-1

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, the reason the military accompany polio vaccination initiatives in Pakistan is because on numerous occasions mentally-deranged Taliban antivaxers have specifically targeted and killed the staff doing the vaccination.
            They are there to protect the staff.

          • AutismDadd

            Big surprise. They want us to think they are heroes. They get chased out of the village after they kill children.

  • al

    There is a connection between vaccines and autism. This study posted on CDC’s webpage “Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism.”

    Study: Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, Schendel D, Wohlfahrt J, et al. A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism. N Engl J Med. 2002;347 (19):1477–1482.

    Results: Table 1

    Vaccinated Children = 440,655
    Cases of Autism and Other Autism Spectrum Disorder = 269 + 352 = 621
    Rate = 621/440,655 = 0.00141 or 1/709

    Unvaccinated Children = 96,648
    Cases of Autism and Other Autism Spectrum Disorder = 47 + 70 = 117
    Rate = 117/96,648 = 0.001211 or 1/826

    Rate of Autism plus other ASD INCREASED with mmr vaccination by 14.1%

    Results: Table 2 Adjusted for Relative Risk

    Vaccinated Children = 1,647,504
    Cases of Autism and Other Autism Spectrum Disorder = 263 + 345 (sum No. of Cases column)
    Rate = 608/1,647,504 = 0.000369 or 1/2,710

    Unvaccinated Children = 482,360
    Cases of Autism and Other Autism Spectrum Disorder = 53 + 77
    Rate = 130/482,360 = 0.0002695 or 1/3,710

    Rate of Autism plus other ASD INCREASED with mmr vaccination by 26.9%

    • Lawrence McNamara

      You really don’t understand statistics, do you?

    • Justthefacts

      Nope. Go back to school. Take a statistics class. You don’t need to learn anything more than statistics experts know more than you do. Dunning kruger much?
      .
      From the results: “After adjustment for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24), and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.”

      If you can’t explain to me what “a relative risk of 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24)” means, you don’t know what you are talking about.
      .

      • al

        The RAW DATA shows a 14% increase of autism with mmr vaccine. Those are just the facts.

        • Justthefacts

          Nope, the raw data says a lot of meaningless things if you manipulate it.
          .
          The increase is 8% if you compare rates.
          .
          The increase in 17% if you compare ratios.
          .
          So tell me Al, Is the number 8%, 14%, 17% or is the answer than you don’t really understand statistics at all? Are you so ignorant that you can’t even understand how little you know and now have become arrogant about it?
          .
          Is the real answer that you suffer from the dunning-Kruger effect?
          .
          Yes, we know the answer to that question……

          • al

            Results: Table 1
            Vaccinated Children = 440,655
            Cases of Autism and Other Autism Spectrum Disorder = 269 + 352 = 621
            Rate = 621/440,655 = 0.00141 or 1/709

            Unvaccinated Children = 96,648
            Cases of Autism and Other Autism Spectrum Disorder = 47 + 70 = 117
            Rate = 117/96,648 = 0.001211 or 1/826

            Rate of Autism plus other ASD INCREASED with mmr vaccination by 14.1%

          • Justthefacts

            You are very proud of your stupidity. Ok, lets do this:
            .
            Rate increase = .00141/.001211 = ~ 17%
            .
            Is ti 17% or 14%. I can share bad math with you all day. Do you want me to show you how 1=0 also?
            .
            Explain this all to me Mr mathematician…..
            .
            x = y.
            Then x2 = xy.
            Subtract the same thing from both sides:
            x2 – y2 = xy – y2.
            Dividing by (x-y), obtain
            x + y = y.
            Since x = y, we see that
            2 y = y.
            Thus 2 = 1, since we started with y nonzero.
            Subtracting 1 from both sides,
            1 = 0.
            .
            NAYBE YOU SHOULD LEAVE IT TO THE EXPERTS?

          • al

            if x = y
            Then xy = x^2 NOT x2

          • Justthefacts

            How about this?

            0 = 0

            because of the law of identity

            0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + …

            because adding a zero changes nothing

            0 = (1 – 1) + (1 – 1) + (1 – 1) + …

            because each 0 equals 1 – 1

            0 = 1 + (-1) + 1 + (-1) + 1 + (-1) + 1 + (-1) + 1 +…

            because subtracting one is equivalent to adding negative one

            0 = 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + …

            because (-1) + 1 equals (-1 + 1)

            0 = 1 + 0 + 0 + …

            because (-1 + 1) equals 0

            0 = 1

          • suz norkan

            Yes! We know that a stalking troll like you, JESTER, can SPAM your ‘ignorance all day long,’ fairy girl! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            That was a cut and paste problem. How about this?

            1.Let a and b be equal non-zero quantities a = b
            2.Multiply by a a^2 = ab
            3.Subtract b^2 a^2 – b^2 = ab – b^2
            4.Factor both sides: the left factors as a difference of squares, the right is factored by extracting b from both terms (a – b)(a + b) = b(a – b)
            5.Divide out (a – b) a + b = b
            6.Observing that a = b b + b = b
            7.Combine like terms on the left 2b = b
            8.Divide by the non-zero b 2 = 1

          • suz norkan

            More spam from fairy girl, JESTthefacts!

          • Justthefacts

            Poster Suz Norkan has many Disqus accounts and also posts as suznorkan, suz_norkin, numero uno suz norkan, realsuznorkan, kroz oluju, Jahara mahayame, quasi tempestas, Licha Hericane, Evie Saleegents, yall ADORE suz 😉 and “guest” so she can insult and troll under different names. She has been banned from at least 9 websites 11 times for poor behavior. That is mostly what she does and all she does on-line.

            RH Reality Check …….. banned (twice)
            AlterNet …………………… banned
            Raw Story ……………….. banned
            Mercury News ………….. banned (twice)
            Washington Times ……. banned
            A shot of prevention ….. banned
            LAist………………………… banned
            Patch………………………. banned
            Breitbart…………………… banned
            The Hill………………………Banned
            KSNT………………………..banned

          • suz norkan

            And as always, you LIE about the reasons for such predicially censored estrangements, since you are a stalking, harassing, SPAMMING & LYING TROLL, JESTthefacts!

            However, for as much as we realize that you enjoy obsessing over suz to the point of incessantly remaining off topic in all the commentaries that you participate in, DO try to ascertain what the correct subject is, fairy girl! 😉

          • suz norkan

            Even MORE copy/pasted spamalot from the queen of spam, fairy girl JESTthefacts! How many sites are YOU banned from now, darlin’! Why don’t you open your profile, which you switched to ‘private’ to hide your deceitful deeds, so we can have a look!

            And as always, you LIE about the reasons for such predicially censored estrangements, since you are a stalking, harassing, SPAMMING & LYING TROLL, JESTthefacts!

            You also deceitfully omit that most of my name changes occurred, when you and your astroBRAT pals violated disqus tos with a parody account in THESE names!

            However, for as much as we realize that you enjoy obsessing over suz to the point of incessantly remaining off topic in all the commentaries that you participate in, DO try to ascertain what the correct subject is, fairy girl! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            Your are just BURNED. Live with your mistakes and your choices Troll!

          • suz norkan

            Wrong, fairy girl! It’s saturday night! Suz is just ‘fullfillin’ a chillin!’

            However, you’re still a stalking, lying & spamming troll, JESTthefacts! 😉

          • Boris Ogon

            It’s saturday night! Suz is just ‘fullfillin’ a chillin!’

            Which apparently also “happens” on Wednesdays* and Thursdays,** at very least.

            * goo[.]gl/LZ3fp2
            ** goo[.]gl/ovlxol

          • suz norkan

            Oh! It’s the persona non grata AND pud!

            Meditation is great, Borings!

            And coo coo kachoo to you too! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            More troll from Suz, the trolling troll.

          • suz norkan

            Even MORE LIES from the stalking, harassing and LYING troll, JESTthefacts, who has to keep their disqus profile set to private, so the world can’t see what a TROLL they truly are!

          • Justthefacts

            Hey al, look up a Graceds post. She thinks you data is all trash because Poul Thorsen faked his expense report. You need to settle the issue with her. She may be right that the data is just bad.
            .
            Let me know how it works out……

          • al

            Also, you cannot simply subtract a TERM from both sides of an equation as that is not an equal operation to both sides.

          • Justthefacts

            All subtractions are equal operations to both sides.
            .
            I have an idea. Why don’t we trust somebody that knows more about statistics than us, like Dr. Diana Schendel who is a Professor at Aarhus University? Don’t you think she would know?

          • Graceds

            Schendel?
            Poul Thorsen’s girl?
            The guy on the OIG wanted list?
            For fraud and money laundering?

          • Justthefacts

            Nope. That’s not true and you know it.
            .
            Maybe you should explain to al that you think the data is bad in that paper, Right?

          • Graceds

            “OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
            Poul Thorsen
            From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
            Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
            The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
            Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
            In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
            According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
            Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.”
            http://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

          • Justthefacts

            So have you told Al that is post is based in trash? He is the one that brought up the paper, not me. I didn’t say the data was good.
            .
            Don’t worry, I’ll tell AL that you think is post is trash.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

          • Justthefacts

            You have no idea what is being discussed, do you?

          • Graceds

            Your defense of Diana Schendel.

          • Justthefacts

            Nope. I didn’t even bring the Danes up. Why don’t you try reading a string and engaging in a discussion instead on mindlessly posting anti-vaxx rants everywhere. It may keep you from looking dumb, as you do now.

          • Graceds

            “I have an idea. Why don’t we trust somebody that knows more about statistics than us, like Dr. Diana Schendel who is a Professor at Aarhus University? ”
            Said justthe.
            Lol.

          • Justthefacts

            That’s all you know so you have been caught tolling again.
            You know nothing graceds – ( And I’m, sure that she know more about statistics than you too, Troll)

          • Mike Stevens

            Al brought the Danes up, Grace.

          • Graceds

            As did your cohort justthefacts.
            Still in Great Britain Mike?
            A country that doesn’t refuse education to children that don’t vaccinate?

          • Mike Stevens

            Only one person can “bring up” a topic, grace.

          • suz norkan

            Not true, Mikey! A topic can be ‘brought up’ many times, but initiated once! Just so ‘ya know! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            Suz the troll, trolling away.

          • suz norkan

            JESTthefacts, the LIAR, lying away!

            And I only commented on something ‘brought up’ by Mikey! Har d har!

            It appears, as always, that you, fairy girl JESTthefacts, are the ‘off topic’, spamming TROLL!

          • suz norkan

            Not to mention JETERS lying propaganda and conspicuous lack of literacy!

          • Justthefacts

            I let Al know that you think his conclusions that the paper shows a link between autism and vaccines is trash because Poul Thorsen is a criminal.
            .
            Let me know how that all works out.

          • Graceds

            Are you saying Diane Schendel manipulated data to show no link between vaccination and autism?

          • Justthefacts

            Did you read this string or are you just doing random, ,mindless posts as you usually do? Do you even know what the subject is? Do you know who posted the Danish paper to start with?
            .
            Are you just mindlessly reacting to random words?

    • Judith

      You are correct
      This study has been soundly criticized by eminent epidemiologist Dr. Walter Spitzer for one, as well as by Dr. Yazbak and Dr. Goldman (himself a former CDC researcher). Safeminds compiled summaries of many of the epidemiological studies on MMR and on thimerosal as they relate to the risk of autism. For this study see #1 under “Individual MMR Studies”:

      http://www.rescuepost.com/file

      • Proponent

        Simple question.. yes or no answer.

        Have you ever posted this before, Judith?

      • VikingAPRNCNP

        The nejm study clearly states and I quote

        This study provides three strong arguments against a causal relation between MMR vaccination and autism. First, the risk of autism was similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated children, in both age-adjusted and fully adjusted analyses. Second, there was no temporal clustering of cases of autism at any time after immunization. Third, neither autistic disorder nor other autistic-spectrum disorders were associated with MMR vaccination. Furthermore, the results were derived from a nationwide cohort study with nearly complete follow-up data.

        N Engl J Med. 2002;347 (19):1477–1482.

        • Judith

          Cochrane Foundation – one of the most highly respected research bodies in the world had this to say about studies into the MMR

          They state that there is no evidence for an association between MMR and autism, but the only included study which could possibly answer the question, comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children, is Madsen 2002. One of the co-authors of that paper is Poul Thorsen, on the OIG’s most wanted list for fraud. Thorsen is a co-author of 22 papers on autism and 5 papers on vaccine safety that still stand and are widely referenced by other authors. Even if including a paper co-authored by Thorsen doesn’t bother you, their note on the Madsen study concludes: “The follow up of diagnostic records ends one year (31 Dec 1999) after the last day of admission to the cohort. Because of the length of time from birth to diagnosis, it becomes increasingly unlikely that those born later in the cohort could have a diagnosis.” They noted the general absence of studies with unvaccinated controls. The reason given is that it would be unethical to have unvaccinated controls.

          DeStefano 2004 is also included. One of the authors of that paper was reportedly granted official whistleblower status and immunity, alleging that the authors manipulated data to cover an association between the vaccine and autism in African American males vaccinated before the age of 36 months. Those authors are collectively responsible for a lot of the “indisputable” science we are hearing so much about. From a few months ago: The Fox Guarding The Henhouse.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Dr Thompson was not granted whistle blower . That zombie lie has been repeatedly disproven to you and yet you keep saying it.

            The 2004 destefano paper results have been confirmed within the past 2 years.

          • Justthefacts

            Judith cannot abandon her lies because they are all she has got. She doesn’t even read posts.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Again Madden 2002 states
            There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

            CONCLUSIONS

            This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.

            No association is no association. Your objection to Dr thorsen is meaningless. He was neither lead or corresponding author. His role in the study was the equivalent of making coffee and copies. In other words he had no real responsible role in the study.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            There was no cover up. This has been shown to be false to you on numerous occasions. The destefano paper has been independently confirmed. I have given you the Jama link before.

            You are incredibly closed to new information….

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            The cochrane review was dated 2012. There have been articles published since 2002

            Studies published since 2002 continue to indicate that there is no established linkage between Mmr and autism.

            You mindlessly mine from other peopled work without thinking about the time lines of publication. A simple pubmed search will tell you if any followup work has been done on the topic.

            The cochrane authors are saying fbetween the lines that Mmr disease prevention benefits exceed risks.

      • Boris Ogon

        as well as by Dr. Yazbak

        Who is most notable as an ardent backer of Alan Yurko’s filicide.

        and Dr. Goldman (himself a former CDC researcher)

        Gary S. Goldman has a mail-order Ph.D. (1980–1982!) in computer science from the defunct “Pacific Western University” and has never been employed by the CDC.

    • Judith

      ..

      • VikingAPRNCNP
        • Judith

          I am not interested in your Michael Simpson pharma marketing guy – with no evidence of any qualifications. The pharma choir seem to look up to this person like he is a guru.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Its not a question of the author of the blog post.
            About a hundred methodologically solid studies are referenced with the link.

            Its a sign of your intellectual laziness and shortcomings in critical thinking that you engage in a attack without first looking at the source.

      • al

        I did not purposefully delete Poul Thorssen’s name from the list of authors. The list comes directly from the CDCs webpage “vaccines do not cause autism” at the bottom of the page under “Related Scientific Articles.”

        I contacted the CDC directly about the issue of the raw data showing that there is a connection according to this study. I received a response from

        Andrew Kroger M.D., M.P.H.
        Medical Officer
        Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

        I he simply restated what the authors stated in the conclusion and ignored the raw data which is where the issue lies.

    • VikingAPRNCNP

      The study doesn’t say that. It says and I directly quote from the article

       After adjustment for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24), and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

      CONCLUSIONS

      This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism

      Don’t post links without also including the discussion from the article.

    • VikingAPRNCNP

      Here are about a hundred studies showing the best evidence.

      http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/yes-autism-rate-rising-vaccines-caused-vaccines/

      Again no linkage….

      • Judith

        Is Skeptical Craptor the high priest of the pharma choral group? Seems this marketing guy who does not publish where and if he had an education is the most influential guy on the block.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          He at least provides references sources for his articles….

        • VikingAPRNCNP

          You are deliberately obtuse. As I have repeatedly said the post is linked to for the attached reference list at the end.

        • Jenny Higgs

          Define the word ‘skeptic’ for us, would you?

  • Lawrence McNamara

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-not-to-debate-a-pro-vaxer/ – the response to everything Tristan has posted…..

    • Hahahahahahahaha!!!!

      What makes that nonsense even funnier is that my document had already covered *exactly* the objections Orac made.

      And in fact, it was immediately after the part of the document Orac quoted.

      I will provide it right here:

      “Pro-vaxer: “But the vaccines weren’t actually to prevent *total* cases of paralysis/deafness/congenital defects etc but just paralysis caused by the polio virus or congenital defects caused by rubella virus etc.”

      Your response is three fold and can be applied to all of the vaccines but I will use polio as an example.

      1) Which person in 1950 cared one iota about the polio virus per se as opposed to the total number of children who were crippled and why should anybody care now? The vaccine has to be measured against what people believed was going to occur which was a reduction in *total* rates of paralysis otherwise you are just shifting the goalposts.

      2) We don’t know the prevalence of the germ today either in patients or the general population and we certainly don’t know its prevalence before the vaccine (in either patients or the general population). Such a thing has never been measured. So even if you are enough of a lunatic to believe that rates of paralysis were irrelevant but prevalence of the germ was all important then you still have no basis to claim the vaccines are a success.

      3) If these diseases were so trivial that their eradication (or near eradication) made no measurable difference to total rates of paralysis/encephalitis/deafness etc then even if you believe their decline is real and can be credited to vaccines clearly they were never significant causes of ill health in the general population anyway and the vaccination program is a waste of time.”

      • I mean it was right there immediately after the part Orac quoted. It wasn’t hidden.

        To be honest, I don’t actually think Orac read the document he was just given a few quotes because in other parts of his rant he says things like “That’s why people like Mr. Wells will latch onto one or a handful of studies that show what they want to believe and ignore the preponderance of evidence that doesn’t show that.”

        What an incredibly strange comment for him to make when one of the sub-chapters is “the folly of studies”. I mean, my contempt for the use of studies wasn’t exactly hidden away in some footnote somewhere. But Orac actually thought that all of my beliefs are based on the (selective) use of studies. Clearly he had no idea.

        Either he didn’t read it or is completely thick.

        • Justthefacts

          Are you in your own dream world? Is it possible for you to return to the subject?

      • Justthefacts

        Well THAT is a set of unsupported lies. Tristan, are you a 9/11 truther also?

      • AutismDadd

        ORAC a Pharma paid shill if there ever was one.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Prove it.

          • AutismDadd

            Read up about him. He’s a doctor who has ties to the industry, but pretends to be independent.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, you’ve made the claim – it is up to you to provide the evidence.

          • AutismDadd

            Screw off then.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope. It’s still up to you to provide the evidence, since you made the claim.

          • AutismDadd

            Hold your breath.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I never expected you to be able to provide real evidence of your position, since you make stuff up out of whole cloth.

            I just wanted to show how bankrupt your position was, which I have done.

          • AutismDadd

            Wrong moron. You’ve shown that I can’t be bothered debating a clown.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, you can’t bother to debate, because you have no evidence.

            That’s just a fact.

          • AutismDadd

            You are curing my insomnia….thanks

          • suz norkan

            These silly followers of ‘scientism’ like to pretend they’re on valid science sites, when they’re actually playing on sites like ‘science b.s. & meds,’ demanding citations for every burp and fart, and erringly think that posting their botched philosophical fallacies and robert’s rules makes them appear smart! 😉

          • AutismDadd

            That’s why I simply toy with them. They are not worth the effort.

          • Kathy

            Don’t hold your breath. AD never does anything but name call. That’s it.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Which is part of the reason he got banned from my site. Interestingly when you ban someone you get to write a note to other admins. AutismDadd has a note on him stating how he pretty much follows people around and harasses them.

            In particular it’s interesting how he believes that he’s providing some kind of service.

          • Kathy

            Yes I am one of those he follows.

          • Sonja Henie

            As am I, even though I haven’t responded to him for months, and never will.

          • Kathy

            I should do that soon. Right now, I just report every single post where he is nasty.

          • Sonja Henie

            I tried that and nothing happened.

          • Kathy

            I will try what Jonathan suggests next time. “Go to his profile and click on the flag in the top right corner and report the user for targeted harassment.” Doesn’t work from phone but works on computer.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yeah, I did that a couple times, most recently yesterday. Nothing seems to have happened yet.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Like most things on the internet I expect it takes a number of reports before anything happens. My only advice is to encourage those he harasses to report him and keep your reports clear and to the point: “This person is targeting me for harassment”. Since targeted harassment is against the Disqus basic rules. We can hope that there will be a response.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Go to his profile and click on the flag in the top right corner and report the user for targeted harassment.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea that’s right. And I’m the ONLY one in all the forums who harrasses too.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You are by far the worst I’ve seen. Also thanks for admitting that what you’re doing is harassment. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            WOO HOO have a party. And STOP harassing me!

          • AutismDadd

            Don’t flatter yourself. You initiate as much as I . You just are too clueless to recall.

          • Sonja Henie

            Thanks for doing that!

          • Jonathan Graham

            It’s funny he was claiming that he adds value to Disqus by showing the lies of pro-vaccine folk and in something like 30 posts on my blog even HE couldn’t point out how he was accomplishing that.

            The whole thread is on https://skeptistics.blogspot.ca/2016/03/does-hpv-have-more-vaers-events-than.html

          • AutismDadd

            And I’m heartbroken I can’t comment on your site anymore. Boy you sure got even Jon Boy. Your parents must be proud to have a tyrant for a son.

          • Kathy

            Dr Gorski is a breast cancer doctor and researcher who also writes grants to fund his research. He discloses one grant in all his years of research that came from Bayer. Otherwise, he has no ties to pharma at all.

            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/editorial-staff/david-h-gorski-md-phd-managing-editor/

          • AutismDadd

            Buh Wah Ha Ha

        • suz norkan

          Not to mention the site simply being an unsound and VERY biased blog spot of severely prejudicially posting regulars, in the least!

          • Justthefacts

            Poster Suz Norkan has many Disqus accounts and also posts as suznorkan, suz_norkin, numero uno suz norkan, realsuznorkan, kroz oluju, Jahara mahayame, quasi tempestas, Licha Hericane, Evie Saleegents, yall ADORE suz 😉 and “guest” so she can insult and troll under different names. She has been banned from at least 9 websites 11 times for poor behavior. That is mostly what she does and all she does on-line.

            RH Reality Check …….. banned (twice)
            AlterNet …………………… banned
            Raw Story ……………….. banned
            Mercury News ………….. banned (twice)
            Washington Times ……. banned
            A shot of prevention ….. banned
            LAist………………………… banned
            Patch………………………. banned
            Breitbart…………………… banned
            The Hill………………………Banned
            KSNT………………………..banned

          • suz norkan

            And as always, you LIE about the reasons for such predicially censored estrangements, since you are a stalking, harassing, SPAMMING & LYING TROLL, JESTthefacts!

            You also deceitfully omit that most of my name changes occurred, when you and your astroBRAT pals violated disqus tos with a parody account in THESE names!

            However, for as much as we realize that you enjoy obsessing over suz to the point of incessantly remaining off topic in all the commentaries that you participate in, DO try to ascertain what the correct subject is, fairy girl! 😉

          • Judith

            ..

          • suz norkan

            It just looks like plain puerilely posted SPAM to me! It doesn’t bother me any, Judith! But I doubt that impartial mods and readers appreciate it much!

          • Justthefacts

            The post that Judith tried to deleted is where she started to say this wasn’t true but she changed her mind. Everything I said about suz is TRUE!!

          • suz norkan

            She said that you posted your lengthy and insignificant ‘off topic’ slop and puke above, previously in this very commentary, JESTthefacts!

            I may have paraphrased a bit here and there, since I may be a tad more assertive than Judith, at times!

            However, Judith is right and speaks the TRUTH that you’ve not only posted it more than once, but if she further infers that you’re LYING in your little smear campaigns, she also is truthful, as you LIE each time you post such deceit!

            I replied that your LYING, spammy rants don’t bother me, [they don’t] so no need for further duplication of commentary, now IS there! 😉

            For the sake of literacy, learn to read, write, spell and type, fairy girl!

          • Justthefacts

            Judith didn’t speak the truth. She deleted her post. She left you out in the cold. She knew you were indefensible. To are an embarrassment even to other anti-vaxxers. Everybody thinks you are are a loser troll.
            .
            Suz, the loser Troll everybody bans and avoids.

          • suz norkan

            Judith speaks the truth, JESTthefacts.

            To the contrary, you’re an illogical, stalking, harassing and spamming TROLL! Stop and TRY to think reasonably about it for one minute!

            Why would she post such in the FIRST PLACE. It’s far more likely that after I told her that your lying crap doesn’t even put a dent in my armor, that she decided she’d rather not deal with YOU, JESTER!

            I don’t know any anti vaxers and please learn to read, write, spell and type if you insist on spamming & trolling in the grown up commentaries!

          • Judith

            I deleted my post because disclosing personal information is off topic and indicates a particularly nasty and vicious character. I don’t want want to get entangled in your web of back and forth vitriol. You might notice this is one of your particular specialities – whereas Dorit Reiss, Mike and many other pro vaccine people do not go down this road. At least they have some maturity even if I don’t agree with their ideas.

          • Justthefacts

            All I did was expose the Troll, Suz. There was zero personal information in the post. If you “don’t want want to get entangled in your web of back and forth vitriol”, then why did you send this message when I wasn’t talking to you?
            .
            Don’t jump down in the mud and then call other people dirty……

          • Judith

            Whether it is true or not true – you show yourself to be a lesser person if you post information about people that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You have posted the same information before and it shows immaturity.

          • Justthefacts

            Thanks for confirming its all true!! Your anger even confirms it more!.
            .
            Thanks Judith for being honest at least once!!

          • Kathy

            Dr Gorski’s blogs is always extremely well referenced. He links to all past articles he mentions, whether from his blog or news sources or other blogs. He references multiple journal articles for every post he writes. He does an outstanding job of proving his points. But, if you don’t read his blogs, you wouldn’t know it.

            SBM has multiple editors and authors, all of whom are medical doctors.

          • suz norkan

            Science b.s. & meds! Biased, blowharding and blogging bushwa! 😉

          • Kathy

            hahaha, typical Suz comment.

          • suz norkan

            That was just for you, Kathy! Here’s a few more for your comedic enjoyment!

            There’s ‘craptor and 2 half brains’ for starters!

            And I’m here all week! 😉

          • Kathy

            You are here all week unless you get banned!

          • suz norkan

            And that would depend on the deceitful ‘gang flagging’ and media manipulation of you and your astroBRAT friends, Kathy!

            Should the censorship be fair, “I’m here all week!” 😉

          • Kathy

            I have never reported or flagged you. You got yourself all those bannings without one iota of help from me.

          • suz norkan

            I use the ‘guilt by association’ protocol when it comes to astroBRATS who use deceitful media manipulations to advance their povs!

          • Jenny Higgs

            I flag shill accusations,sans proof, after asking multiple times for evidence of payment.

            If it wasn’t the tired ol’ Pharma Shill gambit…I didn’t help either.

          • Boris Ogon

            SBM has multiple editors and authors, all of whom are medical doctors.

            Not all. Off the top of my head, the excellent Jann Bellamy is a lawyer.

  • Proponent

    “Vaccination coverage in this region is generally high. As a result, vaccine-preventable childhood diseases like polio and measles have been absent in most countries for the past few decades. This has led to complacency toward the diseases and has unfortunately made vaccines, rather than the diseases, the focus of debate and discussion.”

    (Source: UNICEF | “Tracking anti-vaccination sentiment in Eastern European social media networks”)

    … …

    “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”
    – Mark Twain

  • Graceds

    “The first concern many parents bring up regarding mandatory vaccinations is the side effects.”
    writes Katherine Smart.

    Vaccines can cause profound neurological damage and death.
    It is a genuine concern.
    Please educate yourself on the problems with vaccines, Ms Smart, instead of shoving them under the rug.

    • Justthefacts

      No it’s not. You lunatic fringe anti-vaxxers work to make it a concern for no reason whatsoever. Vaccinations are one of the safest human activities ever invented.

      • Graceds

        Except when they’re not.

        • Justthefacts

          Except that they are……one of the safest human activities ever invented.

          • Graceds

            National Childhood**** Vaccine Injury****Compensation Act.
            1986.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yes, they are among the safest things on the planet – compare $3 Billion in compensation over 30 years (and more than 25% of that was paid on a vaccine that hasn’t been given in this country in over 30 years), versus car accidents – where over $3 Trillion dollars in claims have been paid in the same time period.

          • Graceds

            You don’t create a Vaccine Injury Compensation program because they are safe!!!

            Your numbers don’t include those harmed who were turned away from Vaccine Court (2/3rds). Plus the 5000 in the autism omnibus hearing.
            Most aren’t aware of Vaccine Court.
            Some Vaccine injuries are realized too late to file.
            It’s not a valid safety statistic to use.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You should read up on why the NVICP was created.

            Also, the statistics are perfectly valid because we have them.

            And since autism is not caused by vaccines, the Omnibus cases don’t count.

            And the NVICP is disclosed on every single VIS handed out in this country, so you can’t claim ignorance.

            And in fact, all of the attention the NVICP has been given by anti-vaxers , more people know about it than ever.

          • Justthefacts

            Lets not forget that the law written by the anti-vaxxers at the National Vaccine
            Information Center. A law written to protect the very few vaccine victims.

          • Kathy

            Cowritten by the two founders of NVIC.

            http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/origihanlaw.aspx

          • Kathy

            Oh, we have informed her. She just refuses to move from her POV, regardless of evidence against it.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And they weren’t “turned away” as they had their hearings too.

          • Graceds

            Vaccine injured families are burdened to prove biological mechanisms for the Injury, unless there is a “table” Injury for the Vaccine.
            They, in essence, are required to prove what is barely beginning to be understood: how our immune systems function in response to vaccination.
            We didn’t even know a part of the immune system existed until last year.
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/05/brain-immune-system_n_7510560.html

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You would prefer that they be thrown to the tender mercies of Civil Court, where the burden of proof is higher and the full weight of the adversarial system is brought to bear?

            You’ve obviously never experienced civil litigation before.

          • Graceds

            I prefer that our government make a serious effort to investigate what are the vulnerabilities to vaccine injury.
            I prefer that until the relationship is fully understood that the families are compensated for having played vaccination roulette.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You seem to think that this research isn’t going on today & hasn’t gone on in the past….which is incorrect.

            In fact, there are multiple mechanisms in place to track vaccine safety, not to mention the years of clinical trials that are required before any vaccine makes it to market.

            Sorry, but the “injuries” that you believe are linked to vaccines, aren’t – because no evidence has ever been found to connect them.

          • Graceds

            Dr. Bernadine Healy (former NIH director): “What we’re seeing—in the bulk of the population—vaccines are safe. Vaccines are safe. But, there may be the [this] susceptible group. The fact that there is concern, that you don’t want to know that susceptible group, is a real disappointment to me. If you know that susceptible group you can save those children. [If you turn your back on the notion that there is a susceptible group… what can I say?]”
            You disappoint me, Lawrence.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Care to provide that quote in context?

          • Graceds

            As you know, it’s from CBS interview with Ms Attkisson.

            More from the interview:[“You’re saying that public health officials have turned their back on a viable area of research largely because they’re afraid of what might be found?” Attkisson asked.
            Healy said: “There is a completely expressed concern that they don’t want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. “First of all,” Healy said, “I think the public’s smarter than that. The public values vaccines. But more importantly, I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show.” ]

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Of course it was…..Ms. Attkisson has certainly shown her true colors & gone down the rabbit hole. There is a reason she isn’t with CBS anymore.

            Also, dozens of studies have been done, attempting to link vaccines to the host of conditions that anti-vaxers claim they cause…heck, even Safeminds funded a study, which also showed that vaccines don’t cause autism.

            Seriously, after all these years, anti-vaxers keep flogging a dead horse.

          • Graceds

            Your use of the term antivaxxer exposes your own necrohipposadism.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Then please enlighten us as to what vaccines you currently support?

          • Graceds

            I support the right to choose without state coercion, Lawrence.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            The US Supreme Court has consistently ruled that public health supersedes individual rights.

          • Graceds

            SCOTUS also ruled multiple times to return slaves to their masters.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Actually no – there was one case, which was universally hailed as the wrong decision.

            Since 1905, not a single court has overturned a properly constituted vaccine mandate, ever.

          • Graceds

            Actually, yes, Lawrence.
            “The Supreme Court heard a number of cases involving slavery in the late 1840s and 1850s. With one minor exception, slaveowners won every one of these cases and the Court overwhelmingly supported the power of Congress to assist them in recovering fugitive slaves.”
            http://racism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&amp;
            id=1518:supremecourtslavery&catid=119:articles-related-to-slavery&Itemid=243

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Slavery has nothing to do with vaccines – and you just can’t handle the fact that they are universally accepted, because of the mountains of evidence to show they are safe and effective.

          • Graceds

            Safe for some, not for others.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Medical contraindications for vaccinations are extremely well known.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Which is why everyone who can get vaccinated, should – to protect those who cannot.

          • Graceds

            No one knows in advance who will be injured, Lawrence.
            You can’t write a medical exemption for an unidentified vulnerability.
            You can, however, allow choice in the matter, without state coercion.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Since there is no evidence of these “injuries” – like autism, for instance, that you claim, your don’t have a leg to stand on.

          • Graceds

            Not with someone who fancies necrohipposadism, no.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Like yourself, obviously.

          • Sonja Henie

            You are entitled to your opinions. You’re not entitled to make up your own facts, dipstick! It has been well proven that vaccines do not cause autism.

          • Kathy

            It also allows to follow extremely bad recommendations and put themselves and everyone else in jeopardy.

          • Graceds

            Then your vaccines don’t work.

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, bull sh*t Grace!

          • Kathy

            Again with the claims we have discussed with you ad nauseum? Is your brain a sieve or do you just ignore what we tell you?

          • Jenny Higgs

            The question you have yet to answer, Graceds, is:

            Why should you be allowed to make other people sick?

            Because that’s what the choice you’re campaigning for really is.

          • Graceds

            Vaccines can cause permanent neurological damage and death.

          • Jenny Higgs

            Diseases can cause permanent neurological damage and death.

          • Graceds

            That doesn’t negate the harm that vaccines can do.

          • Jenny Higgs

            And your dodging the question doesn’t negate the harm that diseases WILL do, left unchecked.

          • Graceds

            Backatcha, dodger.

          • Jenny Higgs

            You didn’t ask a question so there’s no question for me to dodge.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Vaccines can cause permanent neurological damage and death.”
            So can breathing oxygen.
            The trick is to look at the risks versus benefits, Grace.
            Serious vaccine damage is so rare that the benefits from vaccination outweigh it by many orders of magnitude.

            Don’t tell me you never eat food, drink water, play in the yard with your kids, drive a car, have a bath?
            All of those can kill you, you know.

          • Jenny Higgs

            No one knows in advance who will be injured by the disease, Graced.

            You can’t write a medical exemption for an unidentified vulnerability.” – 1) yes, you can – you can totally write medical exemptions on family history – 2) you can’t write a medical exemption for the diseases – identified vulnerability or not.

            “You can, however, allow choice in the matter, without state coercion.”

            You can, however, ban parents from co-ercing diseases on the other children.

            And again, Graceds, if you’re smarter than all the experts – no co-ercion since you’re obviously smart enough to figure out how to homeschool.

          • Justthefacts

            What we do know is that many more are injured by the disease than are ever injured by any vaccine. It’s not even close.

          • Sonja Henie

            You mean “I have a feeling” is not grounds for a medical exemption? Smack my hand!

          • Graceds

            No, Sonya.
            I mean you cannot predict who will be injured.
            And that requires the right to say no without state coercion.

          • Sonja Henie

            So home school. I”m not getting into an argument with someone who thinks it’s funny to call my kids IV drug abusers and hookers.

          • Graceds

            Noone ever has.

          • Sonja Henie

            That batty chiro implied it, and you thought it was so witty you upvoted him. Shows us how “ethical” you are, dipstick!

          • Jenny Higgs

            No, Graceds.

            You cannot predict who will be injured by diseases.

            And that requires the right to say no without parental co-ercion.

          • Jenny Higgs

            Same for the diseases.

          • Kathy

            Grace, that was in the 1850s when the law of the land was different. You will need to get someone to write a new constitutional amendment if you want current SCOTUS to rule in favor of antivaxers.

          • Graceds

            My objection to state coercion isn’t legal, it’s ethical.
            Lawrence brought up SCOTUS.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, you, that paragon of ethics! GMAB! Do you also think speed limits, seat belt laws, alcohol consumption laws, and the like are unethical? And don’t give me that “that’s different” argument. Come up with something better.

          • Kathy

            Lawrence brought it up because current case law supports vaccine mandates. Until you get a constitutional ammendment, nothing is going to change in your favor.

            And, quite frankly, your ethics are beside the point here. This is about science.

          • Graceds

            $250, 000 compensation in vaccine court for Vaccine death is about science also, and the reason why the state should not coerce vaccination.

          • Kathy

            No one compensates those who are killed or injured by diseases. You are talking about approximately 150 people injured by vaccines a year (death rate is less than 1 a year, on average). Compare to pre-vaccine stats where tens of thousands died a year and hundreds of thousands were permanently injured every single year.

          • Sonja Henie

            Her ethics suck, anyway!

          • Kathy

            Yeah, our ethics put the health of the vast majority ahead of the rare few. Seems righteous, to me.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            It’s a bad argument, given the history involved.

          • Jenny Higgs

            My objection to parents co-ercing the diseases on their children and other children too isn’t legal – it’s ethical.

            I, however, also have legal backing – you do not.

          • Graceds

            Describing someone who may have one less Vaccine than CDC recommends, as coercing diseases, is not a thoughtful or accurate position.

          • Sonja Henie

            What the H*ll are you talking about Grace? Your credibility dropped lower than it was (if possible) with this racism shtick!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And all the while, the studies that do find connections to the causes of autism, continue to find more and more genetic links – again, nothing to do with vaccines.

          • Justthefacts

            Dr. Bernadine Healy was the director of the NIH 25 years ago and has had descending jobs ever since as an “administrator:, not a scientist.
            .
            That interview was from 2008, Eight years ago. The studies done since
            then have confirmed, conclusively that this is not an issue any more.
            .
            Got any quotes concern the latest research or did she die in 20011?

          • Boris Ogon

            Vaccine injured families are burdened to prove biological mechanisms for come up with some medical theory connecting the vaccine to the Injury

            FTFY, per Althen. Dear G-d, the unfairness of it all.

            Complaining about the first prong is barely a step above complaining about the “burden” of showing that there was in fact any injury in the first place.

            “Vaccination turned me into a newt.”
            “A newt?”
            “Well, I got better.”

          • Graceds

            “Petitioner’s Burden of Proof
            A petitioner seeking to establish causation-in-fact must show, by a preponderance of the evidence, that but for her vaccination she would not have been injured, and that the vaccination was a substantial factor in bringing about her injury. Shyface, 165 F.3d at 1352. Mere temporal association is not sufficient to prove causation in fact; a petitioner must present a medical theory that is supported either by medical records or by the opinion of a competent physician. Grant v. Sec’y of Dep’t of Health & Human Servs., 956 F.2d 1144, 1148 (Fed. Cir. 1992). Proof of actual causation must be supported by a sound and reliable “medical or scientific explanation that pertains specifically to the petitioner’s case, although the explanation need only be ‘legally probable, not medically or scientifically certain.’” Moberly, 592 F.3d at 1322 (Fed. Cir. 2010) (quoting Knudsen, 35 F.3d at 548-49); see also Grant, 956 F.2d at 1148 (medical theory must support actual cause). The preponderance of evidence standard under the Vaccine Act requires proof that a vaccine more likely than not caused the vaccinee’s injury”
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court

          • Proponent

            “While the Vaccine Program relaxes its proof of causation for Table injuries, in that a temporal connection between certain injuries and vaccines is deemed sufficient for causation, causation-in-fact for non-Table injuries equates to the elements for a traditional tort, and a mere “[t]emporal association is not sufficient . . . to establish causation in fact.” Id. at 1148. The Federal Circuit’s language on this matter is instructive:

            When a petitioner relies upon proof of causation in fact rather than
            proof of a Table Injury, a proximate temporal association alone does not suffice to show a causal link between the vaccination and the injury. To prove causation in fact, petitioners must show a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination and the injury. Causation in fact requires proof of a logical sequence of cause and effect showing that the vaccination was the reason for the injury. A reputable medical or scientific explanation must support this logical sequence of cause and effect.”

            (Source: In the United States Court of Federal Claims
            No. 99-628V

            NANCY MANVILLE v.SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES )

          • Boris Ogon

            I take it that your resorting to a copy-and-paste from W—ia is a concession that you basically (1) had no idea what you were babbling about in the first place and (2) are too lazy to come up with anything resembling an intelligent response to my comment.

            You did leave out the next sentence, though: “Causation is determined on a case-by-case basis, with ‘no hard and fast per se scientific or medical rules.’ Knudsen, 35 F.3d at 548.” The burdennnn!

            If you’re going to indulge in offhand whining about the Office of Special Masters, why don’t you either (a) state how it should work or (b) concede that yes, indeed, you would prefer a system in which those seeking compensation should be “thrown to the tender mercies of Civil Court, where the burden of proof is higher and the full weight of the adversarial system is brought to bear?”

            Your previous response, “I prefer that until the relationship is fully understood that the families are compensated for having played vaccination roulette,” is undiluted evasion. Compensated how? How would you modify the Althen test? Or do you simply “think” that anybody should be able to waltz in, say “vaccine injury” — mind you, Kim Stagliano asserts that her unvaccinated daughter’s autism is due to vaccinations that Stagmom received — and be assured of a prompt payout?

          • Graceds

            My points were connected.
            That we are coercing healthy children to be vaccinated, and then requiring them, should the person be Vaccine injured to provide the medical theory of injury.
            It’s backwards.
            Goverment should be investigating what causes Vaccine Injury so it can be predicted and prevented.
            And until we arrive at that point, the state should not be coercing vaccination.

          • Boris Ogon

            My points were connected.

            That we are coercing healthy children to be vaccinated, and then requiring them, should the person be Vaccine injured to provide the medical theory of injury.

            It’s backwards.

            Given that you’re just mindlessly repeating yourself rather than answering the actual questions, I take it that you concede that you think there should be no no evidentiary standards whatsoever for compensation under the NCVIA.

          • Graceds

            I think questions about evidentiary standards are better directed to those who advocate for or have experienced the process.

          • Boris Ogon

            I think questions about evidentiary standards are better directed to those who advocate for or have experienced the process.

            This literally doesn’t mean anything. You cannot or will not answer the questions. You have nothing but evasion. Your comments on this subject are, perforce, devoid of content.

            Thanks for clarifying.

          • Graceds

            You’re welcome.

          • Boris Ogon

            Goverment should be investigating what causes Vaccine Injury so it can be predicted and prevented.

            Oh, wait, is this just your relabeling of the “vax/unvax study” routine that you’ve already demonstrated a wholesale inability/refusal to specify in the most primitive terms possible?

          • Boris Ogon

            And One Tin @graceds:disqus rides runs away.

          • Chris Preston

            Plus the 5000 in the autism omnibus hearing.

            The autism omnibus hearing assessed the claims that vaccines could be responsible for autism and found the evidence wanting. This hearing used the “best” cases that the proponents of the vaccine causes autism hypothesis had and found them to be a complete house of cards.

            There is no valid scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism and a mountain of evidence showing no connection.

          • Justthefacts

            And there is plenty of scientific evidence that vaccines DO NOT cause autism. Studies done on millions of people, vaccinated and unvaccinated have found zero connection between autism and vaccines. There isn’t even a correlations, much less a causation.

          • Justthefacts

            Yes, the law written by the anti-vaxxers at the National Vaccine Information Center. Law written to protect the very few vaccine victims. I do believe the injury rate is less than one in one million make vaccinations…….
            …..one of the safest human activities ever invented.
            .

    • Sonja Henie

      LOL, “profound”. Your favorite word!

  • AutismDadd

    Typical Trash Media still lying about Andrew Wakefield. Nothing about Simon Murch being found not guilty by the GMC or Walker-Smith being exonerated by a REAL court.

    • Justthefacts

      Wakefield is STILL not a doctor after 15 years. It MUST be true………
      .
      Walker-smith was exonerated by throwing Wakefield under the bus and saying the fraud was all Wakefield’s. That is just one more witness against Wakefield……

      • AutismDadd

        You are a liar.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Really? So when was Wakefield re-instated?

          • AutismDadd

            Has nothing to do with being a liar. Maybe the bed wetter forum is more your speed.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            See, this is what anti-vaxers are left with, when they are confronted with questions they can’t answer (or don’t want to answer) – they resort to childish insults.

            It also means that I win.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea you get the medal of DUH.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Keep going – this is fun to watch you flail around.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea I get what a loser you are.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            All you have are insults….what a role model you are for your kids.

          • Justthefacts

            AutismDad is just a troll. He can’t even google sources. Its all made up. All you have to do say he’s got nothing and he folds with insults. He is the least effective AVer I have ever seen.

          • AutismDadd

            Come on you can do better that that….can’t you?

          • Kathy

            AD is one of the worst. He has nothing but name calling. NOTHING. Never contributes even a link to back up his ideas.

        • Justthefacts

          Look it up, Troll

          • AutismDadd

            liar

          • Justthefacts

            Troll

          • AutismDadd

            twistthefacts

          • Kathy

            What did he lie about?

          • brian

            HA! If anyone is a troll here, it is YOU. YOU have commented on every mandatory vaccination discussion on the internet for months now. I am pretty sure you are getting paid for your lies. How despicable.

          • Justthefacts

            HA! The shill card is only played when you got nothing. I’ve been doing this for years, not months. If you got a source that will pay me, post it. I’d like to be paid for doing what I believe in. If you don’t have such a source, I guess you are just playing the shill card.
            .
            You got nothing.
            .
            Come back when you have a clear idea.

    • Chris Preston

      Last time I looked, neither Simon Murch, nor John Walker-Smith were Andrew Wakefield.

      John Walker-Smith claimed in his High Court evidence that Andrew Wakefield lied to him about the Lancet study. So John Walker-Smith having his deregistration cancelled helps Andrew Wakefield not one bit.

      • Lawrence McNamara

        Correct – in reading the actual transcripts of the hearing, Walker-Smith threw Wakefield under the bus to get himself off.

      • AutismDadd

        Yea the clueless don’t see the irony.

    • Kathy

      Both of them were exonerated by throwing Wakefield under the bus and convincing the court Wakefield duped them both. In other words, they got exonerated by making Wakefield look MORE guilty.

      • Jenny Higgs

        Exactly. When their defense was essentially ‘Hey, Wakefield lied to me too’…the fact they got off on that defense does not help ‘saint’ Wakefield.

      • Graceds

        “The children reported in the 1998 Lancet paper were very ill and did warrant serious clinical investigation and the investigations conducted were entirely appropriate for the children’s needs.
        The allegations of fraud based on this misconstruction, propagated by journalist Brian Deer, politician Evan Harris, the Murdoch press and the British Medical Journal (and rubberstamped by the GMC) are therefore also unfounded.”
        http://nationalautismassociation.org/naa-applauds-exoneration-of-john-walker-smith-in-lancetmmr-case/

        • Proponent

          The National Autism Association?

          The group that Chili’s backed away from?

          The Huffington Post | “Chili’s Cancels Plan To Fundraise For Anti-Vaccination Autism Group”

          That NAA?

          Whose president; Wendy Fournier.. appeared along with Andrew Wakefield (and others) to speak at The Autism Trust’s “Give Autism A Chance Summit”?

          That NAA?

          The organization that on it’s website links to the NVIC as a recommended source for information about vaccinations?

          That NAA?

          • Graceds

            You make decisions based on who Chili’s donates to?
            Your choice I suppose.

          • Proponent

            graceds’ “Steps to Engaging in a Discussion”..

            1. Evade
            2. Deflect
            3. And above all.. maintain a passive-aggressive tone
            4. Repeat

            In short.. disingenuous and dishonest tactics.

            … …

            Oh, right.. almost forgot.. enjoy your day.

          • Graceds

            Enjoy… yours…also, Prop.

        • Kathy

          Yeah, say what you want about that case. The courts have already ruled against Andy and that is never going to change. Sorry. Time to move on.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your thoughts.

      • AutismDadd

        I see you went to Troll school

  • Kathy

    I think there is nothing wrong with asking your doctor about risks and benefits for any proposed treatment he or she recommends. This includes vaccines. What is harmful is getting the answers from health bloggers who are making a living selling essential oils, supplements, vitamins, books, dvds, etc. You should ask your doctor for more information. You should look on healthcare websites that are not selling you one single thing. You should talk to your pharmacist. These are the valid sources for information on vaccines, not Dr Mercola, not Natural News, not mommy natural healthblogger, not the chiro, not the accupuncturist, not the naturopath.

    • Lawrence McNamara

      Agreed!

    • pg

      Only a pharmaceutical industry funded education is credible?

      • Lawrence McNamara

        No, science-based education is credible.

        That other stuff is just crap.

        • pg

          Lol, at least you admit you’re a paid poster.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Who admitted what now? You appear to just be admitting your ignorance.

  • transportjohnny

    “Because the government is funding the public school system, legally they
    can require participants to have certain vaccinations before attending.”

    Who is funding the schools?????????????????????????????? It is NOT THE GOVT.

    This is one the most stupid sentences in this article.

    • Lawrence McNamara

      Schools are funded by taxes, but administered by the government – hence why they enact health policies to protect the health of all children in their care.

      • transportjohnny

        NO sheit!!!!!!

        Ok, then…..let me keep my taxes and I would gladly home school.

        Until that happens, they cannot expect parents of vaccine damaged kids to continue vaccinating and NOT educate them. Most state still have personal exemptions and only are excluded from school upon an outbreak. Which is the way it should be.

        Point is….we are the govt and we the people fund the govt…..Not the other way around.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          And what “vaccine damage” do you claim? Because real, serious adverse vaccine reactions happen in less than 1 in 1 million doses.

          • pg

            ?? What is your proof?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You mean the proof from all of the clinical and long-term safety studies done on vaccines?

            Like these:

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

          • pg

            This link does not provide the studies that prove short or long term safety. Nice try, but keep going.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Tha’ts not what you asked for – you asked how often serious reactions occur, which I provided.

          • brian

            Prove it. That is a lie.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I already have – I have provided the links to the CDC information on the statistics of adverse events.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          You don’t get to decide where your taxes go – that’s what your elected representatives do, when they pass a budget.

          They really need to start teaching Civics 101 again in schools.

          • transportjohnny

            Uh, actually we do…..this is the main reason cities die run by dumocrats. We take our tax dollars where we want.

            Your absolutely right about civics…..might do you some good to understand the constitution and individual freedoms, rights and responsibilities.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Highlight “responsibilities” because – “promote the general welfare” is part of the preamble to the Constitution.

          • transportjohnny

            I must cite a provaxatallcostsheeplepeeple mantra:

            Correlation is to causation as is:

            promote is to dictate.

            Remember, you can’t spell dictate without dic.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            So, no real rebuttal then.

            Typical anti-vax behavior. When you have nothing, resort to petty insults.

          • transportjohnny

            How was I insulting you?

            I am merely pointing out the obvious.

            Either you are for individual freedoms and responsibilities or not.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No freedom is absolute – which is why all freedoms are balanced by responsibilities…hence why you can’t yell fire in a crowded movie theater.

          • transportjohnny

            Your a Bernie voter….or Billary. I knew it. LOL.
            The govt is better at making decisions for you…..If that’s your thing…go for it…..Just leave us alone that truly know responsibility that is couple with the freedom.

            Actually, they are absolute when coupled with responsibility. Hence, it would be irresponsible to yell fire in a theater…….when there wasn’t a fire of course.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You are very out of step with the Founding Fathers – since they recognized from the beginning that all freedoms must be balanced with responsibilities.

            I expect you might be one of those wacky Libertarians…..who sound an awful lot like the old communists – their theories sound great, but absolutely suck when you put them into practice.

          • transportjohnny

            Didn’t I just say the freedoms are balanced with personal responsibilities.

            Just so you know….speaking of civics and history…..commies like Bernie and Billary are totally antithetical to Libertarians.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You totally missed my point (no surprise), but I’ll restate it –

            The communist ideology looks great on paper, but sucked when it was put into practice.

            The libertarian ideology looks great on paper, but would also suck, if put into practice.

            Theories are great, but idealistic ones like both communism & libertarianism tend to ignore little things like human nature.

            And yes, the US Supreme Court ruled in 1905, in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, that public health overrides individual rights.

  • pg

    We need to ask where is the documented proof that vaccines even work? All I have ever seen produced is correlation, and we all know when it comes to autism and vaccines, correlation does not imply causation.

    • Lawrence McNamara

      I would love to see your “alternative” explanation as to why vaccine-preventable diseases have nearly vanished from the United States, for instance.

      But, to get down to brass tacks, perhaps you should open up an immunology textbook.

      • pg

        Again, you are reporting correlation, nothing else. Where is the proof?

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Proof that vaccination provides immunity from disease? Seriously?

          Wow, you are a special one, aren’t you….

          http://carrington.edu/blog/medical/vaccines/vaccines-work/

          You can start here.

          http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/vaccine-decision/prevent-diseases.html

          • pg

            Not bad for a paid poster, but neither of your links provide the proof you say they do. Just providing links and hoping you don’t get called on your bluff isn’t going to work.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Ah, the “shill gambit” the last refuge of the pitiful anti-vaxer.

            Since you appear not to understand the human immune response, how can you possibly understand how vaccines work?

          • pg

            you got nothing, all bluff, typical paid astroturfer. dime a dozen.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope, I’m provided actual science. Which you have not.

          • pg

            Your posts are so transparent and scripted it’s actually entertaining reading them again, just from a different paid poster, at least different username.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/prevention/

            Such an uneducated anti-vaxer….I bet you can even define the basic components of the human immune system.

          • pg

            I click every link you post, looking for the studies proving your point….still waiting…..

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • pg

            Only a person with financial interests in this would continue to post these links, knowing they do NOT provide the science you are implying they do. Real people don’t sit around and post link after link.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Well, anti-vaxers appear to only sit around and make stupid assertions without evidence.

            And I have no financial interest, I merely refute stupid statements.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • pg

            Does that link provide health outcomes of vaccinated children with non-vaccinated children?

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • pg

            Nice try, I suspect you haven’t read them, and you were hoping the official-ness of the link would scare off or intimidate people. I don’t get paid to do this, but I’ll be happy to come back and dissect yet another dishonest post aimed at pushing misinformation about vaccines to the public.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You would be incorrect.

            I will wait (not holding my breath) for your scientific response to what I’ve posted.

          • pg

            I can’t believe I took your bait. Your “studies” are all retroactive, the Philippine tests was behind a paywall, and the German asthma study did NOT even state that vaccines reduce asthma in it’s conclusion, but what I could read from these retroactive “studies” doesn’t even qualify as a credible study comparing vaccinated and non-vaccinated groups, as you know, epidemiological and retroactive studies are highly prone to author bias and data manipulation, and the data to begin with not even a known factor or variable. To date there is no large scale, short or long term study comparing the health outcomes, ie asthma, autism, allergies, autoimmune disorder, ect, of vaccinated children vs non-vaccinated children. Your link was a bluff, and a bad one.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You seem to have fallen into the “One True Study” Fallacy…..please, feel free to describe the kind of study you would like to see done & exactly how you would accomplish it….I dare you.

          • pg

            Lol, literally,. laughing out loud! I think any reasonable person would take one true study over a stack of junk science that wouldn’t pass for credible in any other venue or industry.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Right…….then you’d be willing and able to let us know exactly what study you want & how you’d do it.

            Go ahead, I’m waiting.

          • brian

            Second time you have bosted this link: A blogger from Sweden that describes herself as a cell biologist and a fiction writer. Not exactly a reliable source when it comes to the health and well being of children, now isit ?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Again, read the studies – which I suspect you have not.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • Justthefacts

            And out comes the SHILL CARD!!! Always played just after losing an argument.

          • pg

            Lol, your bluffs way too easy to call, but nice try.

          • Justthefacts

            You have called nobody’s “bluff”. You don’t have the ability to call a cab.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • pg

            Until you actually start posting studies and are able to explain them, you’re embarrassing yourself.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You don’t really understand the mechanism of the human immune system, do you?

          • pg

            More nonsense. You can bluff all day long, but you paid posters are fooling less people.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, seriously – I’m sure you can’t name the key components of the human immune system & how it mounts a response against antigens.

          • pg

            I’m sure you have a script which you will stick to when you are being called out and your bluffing begins to look silly.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Please, keep it up – you just appear more foolish.

          • pg

            So you have nothing more than correlation to prove vaccine efficacy, and as we all know, correlation does not imply causation.

          • brian

            Seasoned immunologists would, and have, stated that THEY don’t understand the incredibly intricate nuances of the immune system. You are a special one, aren’t you?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Except that they do understand exactly how vaccines work, and why.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          A person claiming that vaccines don’t “work” is akin to someone looking up & saying the sky isn’t blue….

          • pg

            sort of like a mother looking at her baby that was just vaccinated and eyes rolling back into head shrill screaming, indicating brain damage……

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Which doesn’t happen.

    • Chris Preston

      Well there are many hundred studies comparing infection rates in vaccinated versus unvaccinated children over the course of a century.

      Clinical efficacy of measles vaccine during the 1990 measles epidemic.

      “Household secondary attack rates for 203 California children ages 1 to 5 years were 4.2 and 77.8% for vaccinated and unvaccinated children, respectively”

      Measles mortality and vaccine efficacy in rural West Africa

      “The attack rate in unvaccinated children aged 9-47 months was 43% compared with 6% for children of the same age with documented measles vaccination.”

      These studies can be easily found by anybody who could be bothered to look.

      • pg

        Let’s stick to 1st world examples, using rural west Africa is dishonest as again there are many other factors(correlation, remember?) at play with poor regions. You state there are “many hundred studies” comparing infection rates, yet you cited only 1, which was only measles, and the study group was only 200 kids. Not exactly overwhelming. An educated guess is that most if not all of your “studies” are epidemiological, and therefore retrospective and prone to data bias and manipulation. But keep em coming, since there “many hundreds”, maybe you’ll prove me wrong?

        • Lawrence McNamara

          So, you’ve made the statement that you don’t believe vaccines work – since you have made the assertion, I guess you can also provide the evidence, right?

          • pg

            Show me exactly where I made that statement.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Asking for proof that vaccines work is admitting that you don’t believe that they do.

        • Justthefacts

          You lost again so you are taking your goalposts home with you…..

  • Lawrence McNamara

    https://www.tycho.pitt.edu/

    A real compilation of information regarding vaccines & their impact on public health.

    • pg

      Enough nonsense, post the short and long term studies comparing vaccinated children and non-vaccinated children.

      • Lawrence McNamara
        • brian

          thoughtscapism is a blog written by a Swede describing herself as a cell biologist and a fiction writer. Her sources are fraught with conflicts of interest; the first source she cites is only vetted by buying the article as conflicts of interest regarding that article are only accessible to those whom buy the article. Did you buy that article and vet that this information is not tainted by conflicts of interest?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            But, can you comment on any of the actual studies?

            I thought not.

          • brian

            No, I can not because to see those studies I have to purchase them. Have you purchased them? No, I thought not.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I’ve read them, therefore I can comment on them.

            I thought anti-vaxers were all about research – but it seems like you haven’t.

          • brian

            So you bought them? I highly doubt that. How much did they cost?

          • Justthefacts

            Here is another list for you:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/

            Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents – PMCID: PMC3057555

            A vaccination card was available for 13 499 of these individuals
            (95.4%). Of these, 41 were not evaluated because their vaccination card was
            illegible or seemingly incomplete (follow-up document). Furthermore, five
            unvaccinated subjects were not evaluated who, according to their parents, had
            not been vaccinated at the planned date because of frequent illnesses.
            Evaluable vaccination data were therefore available for 13 453 children and
            adolescents aged 1–17 years (95.1%).

            For 94 of these children and adolescents, 48 girls and 46 boys, no
            vaccination had been documented at the time of the KiGGS survey.

            http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00036846.2011.566203#.Vh1KpU2FOJA

            The effect of vaccination on children’s physical and
            cognitive development in the Philippines

            We find no effect of vaccination on later height or weight,
            but full childhood vaccination for measles, polio, Tuberculosis (TB),
            Diphtheria, Pertussis and Tetanus (DPT) significantly increases cognitive test
            scores relative to matched children who received no vaccinations. The size of
            the effect is large, raising test scores, on average, by about half an SD.

  • Lawrence McNamara

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/

    And there is also the Vaccine Safety Datalink, which is an active, nationwide monitoring system to track vaccine safety.

    Unlike VAERS, which is a passive reporting system, the VSD using multiple organizations across the nation to actively monitor vaccines for adverse events.

  • Lawrence McNamara
  • Lawrence McNamara

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

    And as a reminder, as of the year 2000, measles had been “eliminated” from the United States – meaning that it was no longer actively circulating among the population.

    And this is down from a time when measles infected nearly everyone, at some point, in the nation.

  • Lawrence McNamara

    http://immunizationinfo.com/diseases-prevented-by-vaccines/haemophilus-influenzae-type-b-hib/

    Or Hib, for example – which, when the vaccine was introduced in the late 1980s, underwent a 95% reduction in incidence rates in the US…..I wonder how the anti-vaxers will explain that one.

    • brian

      So are you saying that correlation equates to causation?

      • Lawrence McNamara

        Nope – just providing direct evidence.

        Why don’t you try to explain exactly why the incidence of the disease dropped.

        • brian

          Then why don’t you try to explain why autism went from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 48 after congress granted pharmaceutical companies immunity from litigation from vaccine damages? You can’t have it both ways. Either you believe that the administration of a vaccine caused the 95% reduction or you do not. If you believe that, then you believe that correlation equates to causation. And if you believe that, then you must also believe that the increase in autism was caused by vaccines.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope – not even close. We know how the immune system works, we also know how vaccines work, and we have decades of clinical trials and research to back up vaccines.

            As to the link between vaccines & autism – there isn’t one. No research exists to show a connection & there isn’t even biological plausibility.

            That’s a major factor why trying to say that “correlation = causation” doesn’t work when you try to link vaccines to autism.

          • transportjohnny

            biological plausibility—————————————-NONE EH?????

            Encephalitis can and is caused by both Measles and the MMR. Quite plausible actually.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Encephalitis isn’t autism, never has been.

          • transportjohnny

            In these cases, encephalitis developed between 4 and 9 months after MMR
            vaccination. In one case, the measles vaccine strain was identified as
            the cause.

            What is autism then????

          • Lawrence McNamara

            What cases?

          • transportjohnny

            Quote right from the CDC website.

            Also, what is Autism??? What is any mental condition????

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Where on the CDC website? You just quote randomly now?

          • transportjohnny

            copy it and google it 4 watter.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Why should I do your work for you? I am happy to provide citations and links….any reason you can’t?

          • Justthefacts

            You are lying. That does not exist.
            .
            You are probably going to chase down another insert and allow me to make a fool out of you again. Right?

          • transportjohnny
          • Justthefacts

            First link.
            Autism is not listed as a complication. It fact it says “study authors said they were not able to detect a “significant” association between MMR vaccine and autism”
            .
            Second link
            The word autism is not mentioned in the insert anywhere.
            .
            Third link
            “Vaccine safety experts, including experts at CDC and the American
            Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), agree that MMR vaccine is not responsible
            for increases in the number of children with autism. ”
            .
            It is not necessary to show that the MMR does not cause autism. I already know that. There is no need for you to show me that you are wrong.

          • transportjohnny

            I guess the question begs an answer……………….. Does encephalitis cause or contribute to “mental” issues??????

            If the answer is yes, then ASD is directly attributable to vaccine caused encephalitis.

          • Justthefacts

            Does indigestion cause stomach pain? If the answer is yes, then you think stomach cancer is directly attributable to indigestion.
            .
            You logic is beyond flawed. Many different disorders cause the same symptoms. You are not a doctor or a scientist. You don’t get to redefine words for them and you don’t get to redefine words in a desperate attempt to justify a poor argument.
            .
            Just stop pretending that you get to define medical conditions. YOU DON’T. Autism is not encephalitis, encephalitis is not autism. They have NEVER been the same. encephalitis is swelling for the brain. Autism is not. YOU HAVE ZERO SAY IN THE MATTER OF MEDICAL DEFINITIONS.

            .
            CASE CLOSED.

          • transportjohnny

            Does German measles cause encephalitis?????

            Does German measles cause ASD in some kids?????

            You had better go do the research. I already link that.

          • Justthefacts

            Does German measles cause encephalitis? yes.
            Does German measles cause ASD in some kids. NO!!
            .
            You provided no such links.

          • transportjohnny

            Lyingliarslielots…why do you TWISTTHEFACT????????

            Congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) is associated with several negative
            outcomes, including autism spectrum disorders (ASDs). The objective of
            this study was to estimate the numbers of CRS and ASD cases prevented by
            rubella vaccination in the United States from 2001 through 2010.

            http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-11-340

            http://www.news-medical.net/health/Autism-Causes.aspx

            Exposure to environmental agents such as infectious agents or chemical
            agents (including medications and environmental toxins) during pregnancy
            can cause autism.

            Research has also shown that environmental factors, such as viruses, may
            also play a role in causing autism. Infections that appear to be
            causally related to the development of autism include encephalitis
            caused by measles, congenital rubella, herpes simplex virus, mumps,
            varicella, cytomegalovirus, and Stealth virus.

            Rubella virus was the first known cause of autism. It was found later
            that measles and mumps viruses can cause encephalitis that can result in
            autism later. The infections may usually affect the fetus while in the
            mother’s womb.

          • Justthefacts

            Your first link is to a paper that uses CRS and ASD interchangeably. The paper even says it is determining the “percentage of CRS cases presenting with an ASD” they say up front that ALL the cases are CRS and the use the term “ASD” as shorthand to describe the severity of the symptoms. Since this is a “STUDENT PAPER”, you would expect such errors. There are ZERO footnotes supporting this shorthand. You get CRS from YOUR PARENTS, not from getting Rubella

            Does Rubella casue ASD – NO
            Does your mother getting rubella cause a birth defect that can give you ASD?- YES.

            ASD remains a genetic developmental disorder.
            .
            You second link is to an article written by an associate professor from India, not a researcher or a doctor. This is also unprofessional shorthand full of errors, for example, None of the first cases of autism where from rubella
            .
            A few examples of autistic symptoms and treatments were described long before autism was named. The Table Talk of Martin Luther, compiled by his notetaker, Mathesius, contains the story of a 12-year-old boy who may have been severely autistic.[209]
            Luther reportedly thought the boy was a soulless mass of flesh
            possessed by the devil, and suggested that he be suffocated, although a
            later critic has cast doubt on the veracity of this report.[210]
            The earliest well-documented case of autism is that of Hugh Blair of
            Borgue, as detailed in a 1747 court case in which his brother
            successfully petitioned to annul Blair’s marriage to gain Blair’s
            inheritance.[211] The Wild Boy of Aveyron, a feral child caught in 1798, showed several signs of autism; the medical student Jean Itard treated him with a behavioral program designed to help him form social attachments and to induce speech via imitation.[212]
            .
            The New Latin word autismus (English translation autism) was coined by the Swiss psychiatrist Eugen Bleuler in 1910 as he was defining symptoms of schizophrenia. He derived it from the Greek word autós
            (αὐτός, meaning “self”), and used it to mean morbid self-admiration,
            referring to “autistic withdrawal of the patient to his fantasies,
            against which any influence from outside becomes an intolerable
            disturbance”.[213]
            .
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism
            .
            How many more student papers and blogs will you go through in a desperate attempt to be right?

          • transportjohnny

            LOL……….wikepedia!!!!!!!!

          • Justthefacts

            You are posting student papers and blog so the bar is much lower. Here is the list of links:

            Wing L (1997). “The history of ideas on autism: legends, myths and reality”. Autism 1 (1): 13–23. doi:10.1177/1362361397011004.

            Miles M (2005). “Martin Luther and childhood disability in 16th century Germany: what did he write? what did he say?”. Independent Living Institute. Archived from the original on 3 November 2013. Retrieved 23 December 2008.

            Houston R, Frith U. Autism in History: The Case of Hugh Blair of Borgue. Blackwell; 2000. ISBN 978-0-631-22089-3.

            Wolff S (2004). “The history of autism”. Eur Child Adolesc Psychiatry 13 (4): 201–8. doi:10.1007/s00787-004-0363-5. PMID 15365889.

            Kuhn R (2004). “Eugen Bleuler’s concepts of psychopathology”. Hist Psychiatry 15 (3): 361–6. doi:10.1177/0957154X04044603. PMID 15386868. The quote is a translation of Bleuler’s 1910 original.

            Asperger H (1938). “Das psychisch abnormale Kind” [The psychically abnormal child]. Wien Klin Wochenschr (in German) 51: 1314–7.

            Lyons V, Fitzgerald M (2007). “Asperger (1906–1980) and Kanner (1894–1981), the two pioneers of autism”. J Autism Dev Disord 37 (10): 2022–3. doi:10.1007/s10803-007-0383-3. PMID 17922179.

            Fombonne E (2003). “Modern views of autism”. Can J Psychiatry 48 (8): 503–5. PMID 14574825.

            Szatmari P, Jones MB. Genetic epidemiology of autism spectrum disorders. In: Volkmar FR. Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders. 2nd ed. Cambridge University Press; 2007. ISBN 978-0-521-54957-8. p. 157–78.

            Chambres P, Auxiette C, Vansingle C, Gil S (2008). “Adult attitudes toward behaviors of a six-year-old boy with autism”. J Autism Dev Disord 38 (7): 1320–7. doi:10.1007/s10803-007-0519-5. PMID 18297387.

            Heidgerken AD, Geffken G, Modi A, Frakey L (2005). “A survey of autism knowledge in a health care setting”. J Autism Dev Disord 35 (3): 323–30. doi:10.1007/s10803-005-3298-x. PMID 16119473.

            Biever C (2007). “Web removes social barriers for those with autism”. New Sci (2610): 26–7. Archived from the original on 20 October 2012.

            Harmon A (20 December 2004). “How about not ‘curing’ us, some autistics are pleading”. The New York Times. Archived from the original on 11 May 2013.

          • transportjohnny

            Autism Causes—–By Dr Ananya Mandal, MD

            http://www.news-medical.net/health/Autism-Causes.aspx#

          • Justthefacts

            yeh The associate professor from
            India, not a researcher or a doctor. This is also unprofessional
            shorthand full of errors, for example, None of the first cases of autism
            where from rubella. I already addressed that crap.

          • Justthefacts

            lets see what this Indian professor said:
            “Vaccines and autism
            .
            To date, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that any part of a
            vaccine or any combination of vaccines causes autism. There is also no
            proof that any material used to make or preserve vaccines plays a role
            in causing autism. This follows the fears that a vaccine preservative
            Thimerosal is responsible for autism.”
            .

            I am glad you now agree that vaccines do not cause autism. WE ARE IN AGREEMENT!

          • transportjohnny

            TWISTING AGAIN……MEASLES CAUSES ENCEPHALITIS AND AUTISM……THEREFORE, A LIVE VACCINE CAN TOO……………YEP THANKS FOR AGREEING.

            Rubella virus was the first known cause of autism. It was found later
            that measles and mumps viruses can cause encephalitis that can result in
            autism later.

            Research has also shown that environmental factors, such as viruses, may
            also play a role in causing autism. Infections that appear to be
            causally related to the development of autism include encephalitis
            caused by measles, congenital rubella, herpes simplex virus, mumps,
            varicella, cytomegalovirus, and Stealth virus.

          • Justthefacts

            Is your source correct or not?
            .
            Your source says ” there is no conclusive scientific evidence that any part of a vaccine or any combination of vaccines causes autism. There is also no proof that any material used to make or preserve vaccines plays a role in causing autism.”
            .
            If this not correct, we can’t trust anything else she says, can we?
            .
            You can pick and choose what to believe. I don’t

          • transportjohnny

            We are talking about scientific plausibility. So yes there is a connection with measles….and ASD and encephalitis…..The MMR is in fact a LIVE virus No???????

          • Justthefacts

            Do we are not. We are talking about definitions. By definition, ASD is not encephalitis. There is not a debate. You are just wrong.
            .
            MMR is an attenuated live virus vaccine.

          • transportjohnny

            “Do we are not”

            Definitions are not descriptions. The whole point is ASD are descriptive behaviors as it’s definition……IT DOES NOT DESCRIBE CONCOMITANT BIOLOGICAL, BIOMEDICAL, PHYSIOLOGICAL FACTORS ASSOCIATED WITH ASD.

            Yes, I we agree……LIVE VIRUS INJECTION. THIS WAS NEVER BEING DEBATED.

          • Justthefacts

            No it is not. It doesn’t matter how many personal defintions you choose, you don’t get to define what Autism is. I will repeat the medical definitions again.
            .
            ASD is NOT a “description of the behaviors” is is defined as follows:
            .
            Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p
            .
            Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and autism are both general terms for a group of complex disorders of brain development.
            — DSM-5 dianostic manual
            .
            Autism is a complex neurobehavioral disorder
            http://www.webmd.com/brain/aut… a variable developmental disorder that appears by age three
            —- http://www.merriam-webster.com
            .
            All definitions are developmental disorders. period.
            .
            YOU ARE ,BY DEFINITION, WRONG BY EVERYONE’S DEFINITION.

          • transportjohnny

            People will just have to read for themselves. Nowhere in the literature will they see anything about biological processes…..funny that all the links are dead.

          • transportjohnny
          • Justthefacts

            You posted that source as correct. That source say vaccines don’t cause autism. You are arguing with yourself.

          • transportjohnny

            Does encephalitis cause “mental issues”?????????

          • Justthefacts

            Encephalitis, meningitis, poisoning, and blunt force trauma can all cause “mental issues”. What possible point can you make, Mr Non-doctor?

          • transportjohnny

            Thanks for agreeing……Mrs Non Doctor!!!!

          • Justthefacts

            So you had no point. What a surprise.
            .
            I have a point. I am male. That is just another assumption you made up without any evidence.
            .

          • transportjohnny

            OK Bruce…..I mean……..Caitlyn Jenner.

          • Justthefacts

            You are reduced to insults. Thanks for admitting I’m right.
            .
            You can go now.

          • transportjohnny

            Thank you…I will.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • transportjohnny

            That is a sheit site. I know what the outward signs are in terms of behavior…..I want to know from you…your knowledge of what it is from a biological/biomedical point of view?????

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • transportjohnny

            No, I already read it…..From you….describe your first hand knowledge and experience.

            You can’t can you?????

          • transportjohnny

            Yes, def a crap site.

          • transportjohnny

            Is encephalitis a side effect from actually injecting a live virus vaccine into a child??? The answer is yes.

            http://www.healthline.com/health/encephalitis#Overview1

            http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/encephalitis/basics/symptoms/con-20021917

            So, austim according to you sheit site above is very…..very..shockingly similar to encephalitis.
            Confusion, agitation or hallucinations
            Seizures
            Loss of sensation or paralysis in certain areas of the face or body
            Muscle weakness
            Double vision
            Perception of foul smells, such as burned meat or rotten eggs
            Problems with speech or hearing
            Loss of consciousness
            Signs and symptoms in infants and young children may also include:
            Bulging in the soft spots (fontanels) of the skull in infants
            Nausea and vomiting
            Body stiffness
            In
            Poor feeding or not waking for a feeding
            Irritability

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Wow, not even close – are you even capable of reading English?

            Encephalitis is extremely easy to diagnose & an encephalitic brain looks nothing like the brain of someone with autism.

            Seriously, you really are grasping for straws, aren’t you?

          • transportjohnny

            No, your the one moving the ball…….I asked what does autism look like from your first hand knowledge and experience??? You could not answer it.

            You said NO PLAUSIBILITY. The outward symptoms of Encephalitis are very similar what is found in the behaviors of ASD kids. So there is absolute plausibility.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, there isn’t. Your “comparison” doesn’t fit at all.

          • transportjohnny

            Your first hand experience please?????

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I have met autistic children – they don’t exhibit the signs you listed above.

          • transportjohnny

            What signs???? I did not list them.

          • transportjohnny

            “Met” NOW THAT IS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.cdc.gov/NCBDDD/autism/facts.html

            I don’t see your list here, do you?

          • transportjohnny

            Again, this only speaks of genetics and behaviors and non-biomedical treatments. I asked about biological and biomedical things coupled with ASD that you know of.

            You list none since you have no first hand knowledge.

            Good day to you.

          • Justthefacts

            There are zero biological and biomedical things coupled with ASD that are not genetic. That explains the list, doesn’t it?

          • transportjohnny

            Your an equinebackside. Read the last statement.

            https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiCtNqz8NbLAhXBmIMKHYXVBFsQFggrMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalautismassociation.org%2Fpdf%2FMedicalComorbiditiesinASD2013.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFbAmqR82C3jXLi_3que9ngZCtq-w&cad=rja

            http://www.autism-help.org/comorbid-disorders-autistic-spectrum.htm

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20643385

            With advancements in clinical care, there has come the appreciation that
            many ASD children, adolescents, and adults may have medically relevant
            disorders that may negatively impact their developmental progress and
            behavior, but which frequently go undetected. Many of these medical
            conditions are treatable, often resulting in improved developmental
            gains and quality of life for the patient and family. In addition, the
            possibility exists that some of these medical conditions may suggest the
            presence of important genetic and/or biologic markers

          • Justthefacts

            The last statement you wanted me to read:
            “some of these medical conditions may suggest the
            presence of important genetic and/or biologic markers”
            .
            Yes, Autism appears to be genetic in all respects. I’m glad we agree.

          • transportjohnny

            genetic and/or biologic markers”…………and/or………………….or………..duh????

            Your helpless!!!!

          • Justthefacts

            You lose and can’t handle it. That is nothing more than I expected.

          • transportjohnny

            Biological or physical CONCOMITANT factors that coincide with ASD…..what are they?????

            You can’t answer any questions.

          • Justthefacts

            Sure i can. The most significant Concomitant associated with ASD is genetics.
            .
            Everybody knows that.

          • transportjohnny

            I challenge anyone to go and read anything about any(most any) disease process. It will speak of genetics and ENVIRONMENTAL EXPOSURES.

          • Justthefacts

            Ye, to the UNBORN. after you are born, the genetics are fixed. Certain defects can be triggered by events but the defect was there to begin with.

          • transportjohnny

            Yes, an environmental exposure to say, to a live vaccine…..would and could trigger, and there would be an association with vaccines and ASD…….Thanks!!!! I knew we would agree!!!!

          • Justthefacts

            See, you are a liar. I didn’t mention ASD.
            .
            It has been shown, conclusively, using millions of vaccinated and unvaccinated study subjects, that vaccines do not cause autism. This settled by science and in the law
            .
            -95,000 children were studied, no connection between vaccines and autism.
            http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-04/tjnj-naf041615.php

            –In 1991, Howson et al. reviewed hundreds of vaccine safety studies, and it was repeatedly shown that vaccines didn’t cause autism
            –Taylor et al. (1999) studied 498 autistic children in UK showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
            –Hviid et al. (2003) studied 450,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism based on thimerosol in vaccines
            –Miller et al. (2004) studied 100,000 children in the UK and and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on thimerosol in vaccines
            –DeStefano (2004) studied 2,500 children in the US showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
            –Honda et al. (2005) studied 300,000 people in Japan showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
            –Fombonne et al. (2006) studied 28,000 children in Canada showing no difference in autism rates and other developmental disorders based on vaccination
            –Robinson et al. (2010) studied autism rates among the Amish, which anti-vaxxers pretend don’t exist
            –Kuwaik et al. (2014) studied autism rates among those who had older siblings with autism, showing no difference based on vaccination even with genetic predispositions to autism

          • transportjohnny

            Yep, whatever you say…..

            Why again to NVICP and VAERS even exist?????????? Please……get me more clear.

          • Justthefacts

            Autism id NOT a vaccine injury but there are injuries that are and happen at a rate less than one in one million. That is why there is a NVICP and VAERS.
            .
            You are seriously uninformed.

          • transportjohnny

            Oh, OK.

          • Justthefacts

            transportjohnny thionks a broken leg in autism. He is one of the worse of the anti-vaxx nutcases that think they can redefine science in a failed effort to make themselves correct.
            .
            Another Google doctor.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Encephalitis occurs in about 1 in 1000 cases of Measles….it may occur in about 1 in 1 million doses of the MMR vaccine.

            But hey, was this studied, perhaps? Oh why yes it was:

            http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20150107/long-term-study-finds-measles-vaccines-safe

          • transportjohnny

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/mmrv/mmrv-safety-studies.html

            Yep, twice as likely to have seizures with the combo mmrv vs the mmr only.

            Are seizures part of encephalitis????????

            Seizures are common in encephalitis but there is paucity of comprehensive studies evaluating predictors of seizures.

            Well, maybe…..ding ding………..They ARE.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, they aren’t.

            You really don’t know what a febrile seizure is, do you?

          • transportjohnny

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/mmrv/mmrv-safety-studies.html

            7-10 days after the first dose of vaccination, the rate of febrile
            seizures was about 2 times higher among children who received MMRV
            vaccine (8.5 per 10,000 children vaccinated) than among children who
            received measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) and varicella vaccines
            separately at the same visit (4.2 per 10,000 children vaccinated),
            mainly before MMRV vaccine became available.
            7-10 days after vaccination, about one additional febrile seizure
            would be expected to occur among every 2,300 children vaccinated with
            first-dose MMRV vaccine compared with children vaccinated with the first
            doses of MMR and varicella shots at the same visit.

          • Justthefacts

            You are another nutcase that doesn’t know what autism is.

          • transportjohnny

            I guess it takes one to supposedly know one.

          • Justthefacts

            Nope. I read the definti0on referenced by Lawrence and they are correct and consistent with the DSM-5 definition. I accept the medical definition of autism and understand exactly what it is.
            .
            We have nothing in common.

          • Justthefacts

            That does not apply to autism. The definition of autism is clear and it excludes encephalitis. Encephalitis is an observable inflammation of the brain. it is not a “mental condition”
            .
            Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder by definition.
            .
            That is a fact.
            .
            It is also a fact that you are not a doctor or a scientist. Shut up with your lies.

          • transportjohnny

            Code pink……all the same.

            Definitions have been around for decades sometimes even centuries. A descriptive name for a given disease DOES NOT move science forward. Critical thinking, thinking outside of what lamestream medicine teaches, trying various treatments that might not otherwise be considered to be linked, scientific studies like the ones I pointed to discussing encephalitis and “mental” issues.

            Again, since Autism is only DEFINED by a set of behaviors……these same behaviors can be linked to encephalitis.

            Anyway, your a sheepleshillyingliar. I can’t help you any more.

          • Justthefacts

            You have to label ti to study it, discuss it and separate it from other things. You are not a scientist; you are a nutcase.
            .
            You don’t get to make up the definition of Autism.

            Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17967921
            .
            Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and autism are both general terms for a group of complex disorders of brain development.
            — DSM-5 dianostic manual
            .
            Autism is a complex neurobehavioral disorder
            http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/understanding-autism-basics

            austism a variable developmental disorder that appears by age three
            —- http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autism
            .
            YOU ARE ,BY DEFINITION, WRONG BY EVERYONE’S DEFINITION.
            .
            Learn to accept your failures. I see a lot of them in your future..

          • transportjohnny

            Sorry, but your wrong. I am asking about medical conditions associated with ASD….since it only is a description of the behaviors…..it speaks to nothing about associated medical issues that can be treated and corrected thus improving the behavioral stuff. Again, you deflect from the questions at hand.

            Is does german measles cause autism?????????????????????

          • Justthefacts

            No. NO, you are very, very wrong. You are arrogantly wrong.
            .
            ASD is NOT a “description of the behaviors” is is defined as follows:
            .
            Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p
            .
            Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and autism are both general terms for a group of complex disorders of brain development.
            — DSM-5 dianostic manual
            .
            Autism is a complex neurobehavioral disorder
            http://www.webmd.com/brain/aut…austism a variable developmental disorder that appears by age three
            —- http://www.merriam-webster.com
            .
            All definitions are developmental disorders. period.
            .
            YOU ARE ,BY DEFINITION, WRONG BY EVERYONE’S DEFINITION.

          • transportjohnny

            You just can’t get it…..sorry, I cannot help you any longer.

          • Justthefacts

            Of course not. You are helpless. Have fun in your own personal world.

          • transportjohnny

            Oh, I do for sure……you, I don’t think so……I feel sorry for you!!!!

            Best of luck to you.

          • Justthefacts

            You are lying.
            .
            First link
            “Autism” or “ASD” is not mentioned.
            .
            Second link
            “Autism” or “ASD” is not mentioned.
            .
            Third and fourth link
            Anti-vaxx quack blog. Teresa Conrick is a blogger and she can’t rename medical conditions to sue her needs any more than you can. I will note that the whole article is about how encephalitis has been misdianogised as autism from time to time becuase………wait for it……….encephalitis adn autism are TWO DIFFERENT CONDITIONS.
            .
            QUOTE:
            “Many children ultimately diagnosed with anti-NMDA autoimmune
            encephalitis were first determined to be autistic. How many children
            originally first diagnosed with autism weren’t able to find their
            autoimmune diagnosis? There is no question that the immune system is involved in both.”
            .
            “BOTH” means TWO DIFFERENT CONDITIONS.
            .
            Fourth link
            Here is the ACTUAL study:
            http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/early/2011/09/20/jnnp-2011-300411.abstract
            “Autism” or “ASD” is not mentioned.
            .

            You continue to prove my case. Learn to read.

          • Sonja Henie

            That’s the lamest retort of all!

          • transportjohnny

            Twistthefacts can’t keep the facts straight since she is twisted. It was meant to make her go away.

          • Sonja Henie

            Don’t bet on it, johnny!

          • transportjohnny
          • transportjohnny

            https://youtu.be/8elE7Ct1jWw

            Here is an oldie but a goodie!!!

          • transportjohnny

            You sheeple crack me up.

          • transportjohnny

            Pretty lame in your own right!!!!!!!!!!

          • AutismDadd

            WEBMD buh wah ha ha…hears the stooge who goes on about credible sources

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I don’t see you posting any sources at all.

            Go back and pay attention to your son.

          • AutismDadd

            What a fraud. Nothing but an ignorant mouth, a sad mind and a keyboard warrior’s bravado.

          • brian

            It really does not matter what it is you believe, what science you regurgitate or what your point of view is. I am an adult, and I am a free man. I am ordained God given rights, and one of them is to decide what medical procedures I accept or ignore. No amount of your tobacco science can steal away those rights. No amount of ORAC articles written by people with huge conflicts of interest will dissolve my human rights. No laws passed by crony politicians funded by GSK can morally violate my person. I will not comply. And if you forcefully attempt to inject me or mine against our will then I will defend myself and mine appropriately. What you are advocating for is the violation of basic, fundamental human rights. You are NOT on the right side of history. Your prodigy will hang their heads in shame when speaking your name as the story of you and those you work for is exposed and understood many, many years from now. You are a coward and a liar and that is how you will be remembered.

          • Justthefacts

            still, all claims and zero evidence. You are insane.

  • brian

    Vaccines can, have and do cause harm. This is an indisputable scientific fact. IF it were not, then the VICP would not have paid over 3 BILLION dollars to vaccine injured children. If vaccines did not cause harm then the 1976 swine flu epidemic would not have ended with more people injured and killed by the vaccine then the swine flu itself. If a medical procedure carries with it risk, there must be personal choice. It is never right to expect a parent to adopt a medical procedure that carries with it risk for the “safety” of another. Never. If you believe otherwise then you are the enemy of free man everywhere. It does not matter what crony politician you get to pass draconian laws that violate human rights, the Nuremburg code and the AMA’s policy of informed consent. I will not comply, and neither will millions of others.

    • Chris Preston

      IF it were not, then the VICP would not have paid over 3 BILLION dollars to vaccine injured children.

      The VICP is there to compensate the very small number of people that may be harmed by vaccines. Every medical choice carries the possibility of harm, including not vaccinating. It is only right to compensate those who are harmed by vaccines, because getting vaccinated helps protect everyone in the community.

      Your bandying about the 3 billion dollar compensation figure is completely erroneous, because it needs to be in context. That 3 billion dollars is spread over 28 years. Petitioners are automatically awarded attorney fees, regardless of the outcome and those fees are included in the 3 billion dollar figure.

      Between 2006 and 2014 there were just over 2000 awards for vaccine damage out of more than 2.5 billion vaccines given in the US.

      It is never right to expect a parent to adopt a medical procedure that carries with it risk for the “safety” of another. Never.

      You are completely and utterly ignorant here. Yes it is right to adopt medical choices that carry risks. If your child had leukemia, what would you do? Watch it die or adopt medical interventions that carry a risk of harm? Indeed, if you chose to refuse treatment, the state would likely take the child away from you under child endangerment laws.

      Seriously, you need to take a good, hard look at yourself if this is really how you think.

      • brian

        If you really want to put the VICP into context then let us do that properly. It is conservatively estimated that only 10% of the vaccine injured populace actually qualifies to petition the VICP because of the short reporting time and other mountains of red tape purposely integrated into the program, so that 3 billion does not accurately represent the literally millions of people damaged by vaccines whom receive no compensation whatsoever. Not to mention the fact that the 3 billion is only in the US. It does not touch on the 40,000 kids in India now paralyzed by the Gates foundations oral polio vaccine. It does not mention the thousands now sterilized in Africa due to vaccines. You are a “greater good” kind of person. You believe that the ends justify the means. I do not. Guess what; it does not matter what science you subscribe to or what you think you have the right to force onto others against their will for the “greater good”. You have no such power. You have no right to violate another human beings personal medical choice. And if you think you have that right and go about violating fundamental human rights you will be held accountable just like those found guilty of violating the Nuremburg code. Mandatory vaccines are a violation of the Nuremburg code and the AMA’s policy of informed consent. You are nothing but a common criminal.

        • Lawrence McNamara

          Wow – I’m sure you’ll provide citations for all of those statements, because almost nothing you’ve said is actually true.

          • brian

            Really? So the VICP has not paid out over 3.1 billion dollars? And the India Journal of Medical Ethics did not publish a paper stating that over 40,000 children are now paralyzed from the polio vaccine? And war is peace, huh? I do not think you have the mental capacity to discern fact from fiction. What I have posted are facts. Easily vetted facts.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope. $3.097 Billion, minus attorneys’ fees.

            And no, 40,000 children were not paralyzed by the Polio Vaccine.

            Your “facts” aren’t real.

          • brian

            Yes they are. You are simply a liar.

          • Justthefacts

            wrong. post the evidence. post the sources.
            .
            You can’t. You are a nutcase liar.

          • Justthefacts

            incorrect. I would say everything brian said is a fabrication. I could safety defend that claim.

    • Lawrence McNamara

      Vaccine mandates do no such thing. In fact, vaccine / immunization requirements go all the way back to 1792, when the Commonwealth of Virginia passed the first mandate.

      And there is always a choice – if you don’t want to get vaccinated, you don’t have to – but all choices carry with them consequences. I’m sorry if you don’t like being held accountable for your choices.

      • brian

        I am pretty sure that using antiquated laws from 1792 to prove your point will not fly with many Americans. By your logic we should be tying boulders to suspected witches and dropping them into lakes; if they surface, they are witches, and if not, oops!

        • Lawrence McNamara

          No, it just means that the first laws were passed around the same time this country was founded.

          Since then, mandates have existed in many forms, in all 50 states.

          That’s just a fact.

          • brian

            And it is also a fact that the first people to become anti-vaccine did so because the smallpox vaccine was mandated. Leicester England: The people realized that the small pox vaccine was CAUSING the small-pox and killing people, so they refused to take the vaccines. They were demonized and health “officials” of the day declared that the people of Leicester would suffer unimaginable loss of life for their choice to avoid vaccines. Leicester actually had less death and disease then all of the surrounding municipalities whom still adopted vaccination by far, which ultimately resulted in the vaccine mandate to be removed. I am not aware of vaccine mandates present in all 50 states, and if they are there, then exemptions exist with them all but a few.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Sorry, but quotes from “Whale.to” aren’t going to get you much traction here.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082657/ – perhaps you should read the actual history, because it doesn’t say what your “quote” says it does.

          • brian

            Yes, it does, and I did not quote anyone.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            No, it actually doesn’t.

          • brian

            You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. It is a historical fact that Leicester England was the first town to refuse mandated vaccinations and did much better medically then the vaccinated. Do you dispute this?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You should read the documentation provided, “better” is a relative term, given the other disease outbreaks they sustained & the fact that ultimately, they adopted universal vaccination as well.

          • brian

            Germany: 1870-1871
            Over 1,000,000 people had
            smallpox of which 120,000 died. 96% of these had been vaccinated.

            Philippines: 1918-1919 Smallpox
            epidemic resulted in 60,855 deaths. (2) with over 95% of the population
            vaccinated, the worst epidemic in the Philippine’s history occurred resulting
            in a case mortality of 65%. The highest percentage occurred in the capital
            Manila, the most thoroughly vaccinated place. The lowest percentage occurred in Mindanao, the least vaccinated place owing to religious prejudices. (2)

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Why don’t you provide your source?

            Oh wait, I found it – So, it’s the “Vaccine Liberation” Front – couldn’t possibly be a biased source, right?

            And where did they get their information from?

            Whale.to – the most wretched hive of conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial on the web.

            Nice source there buddy.

          • brian

            Do you dispute those numbers?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Anything from “whale.to” is suspect to the point of ridiculousness. Seriously, get some better sources than a Holocaust Denial site.

          • brian

            Do you dispute those numbers?

          • Justthefacts

            A million times yes, we all dispute your made up numbers. Post a source that is not an anti-vaxx nutcase.
            .
            What part of that do you not understand?

          • AutismDadd

            Yea skepticalraptor is the way to go right troll?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            So, you are a Holocaust Denier as well?

            Good to know.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea you see that in my post right? You have the intelligence of a buttcrack.

          • Justthefacts

            Yes, a thousand time yes. That is bogus crap.

          • Justthefacts

            Yep, that’s all Ian Sinclair’s crap. He wrote pamphlets he called “books” in Australia that were anti-medicine and filled with lies. There was not a footnote in one of them. He was a homeopath believing in “Toxemia” among other crazy ideas. Get ready for this gem of his;

            “If a child develops measles, chicken pox, whooping cough, mumps, rubella or any of the other common childhood infections, it is not because of germs, but because of the accumulated toxic waste within its body, a condition known as Toxaemia.”
            .
            Thats right Ian Sinclair was a gen theory denier even in a age when you can “see” bacteria.
            .
            He could give up on the small pox vaccine even years after the vaccine eradicated small pox and wasn’t used anymore. THAT is what we call a sore loser.

          • Justthefacts

            Post your sources liar.

          • brian

            Scotland: 1855-1875 over 9,000 children under 5 died of smallpox despite Scotland being, at that time, one of the most vaccinated countries in the world.
            1907-1919 with only a third of the children vaccinated, only 7 smallpox deaths were recorded for children under 5 years of age.

          • Justthefacts

            Post your source that is not from an anti-vaxx crank.

          • brian

            Better means better. Less people died, less people sick, because they did not get vaccinated. Better. Now you want to re-define the definition of better. Wow.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Nope, you really didn’t bother to read the actual history – because it doesn’t say what Suzanne Humphries says it does.

          • brian

            Yes, I have. Reading just one account of the history as you have done is not really how one studies history. Do you dispute the fact that the people of Leicester whom stopped vaccinating had less death and disease then the towns that vaccinated?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Seems that they also instituted strict, mandatory quarantines…..

          • brian

            And your point is?

          • Justthefacts

            That remains a lie
            .
            Page 322:
            small pox cases per 1000
            .
            London – 5.5 – With vacination
            Leicester – 20.5 with less vaccination.
            .
            The “Leicester method” was good at TREATING the disease and a FAILURE at preventing it.
            .
            That is a fact
            .
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082657/?page=8

          • Justthefacts

            yes, we all dispute that. Do you have a source that is NOT an anti-vaxx crank.

          • Justthefacts

            So you are whinning about a vaccine thats over 100 years old and not needed anymore?
            .
            Like the rest of us, I recommend that you NOT take the small pox vaccine. Its not needed anymore since the small pox vacine eradicated small pox in the 70s.
            .
            Really, try to keep up with the news.

          • brian

            Citing the same source as “THE” historical record by an alphabet agency really is poor research. Some quotes from some of the people ont his topic:

            “If vaccines are so effective in preventing disease why have epidemics occurred around the world following mass vaccination programs? In the Philippines for example, “after ten years of compulsory inoculation against smallpox (25 million shots) over 170,000 got smallpox and 75,000 deaths were recorded between 1911 and 1920” (from the Townsend Letter for Doctors article “Are Vaccines Generally Detrimental to the Human Defence System,” Feb/Mar 1994).”

            “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.” – Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer at the US Federal Drug Admin.)

            “May as well consult a butcher on the value of vegetarianism as a doctor on the worth of vaccination.”—Bernard Shaw
            Or do you dispute that these people made these statements? You are in denial.

          • Justthefacts

            The Townsend letter is nonsense from a nobody. The Dr. J. Anthony Morris quote is even older. He was run out of his job in the 70s for being a nut. Bernard Shaw is an author from even an earlier time period.
            .
            Have you got anything less than 25 years old?
            .
            You are also a nut case.

          • Justthefacts

            In that paper on page 322, it clearly shows that Leicester had 4 times the small pox cases per 1000 people as London itself and twice as many cases for children under 10. That paper is clear documentation of the value and benefit of vaccines.
            .
            Its clear that Brain is a nutcase that reads what he wants into everything. Brian can’t accept the facts before his own eyes.

          • brian

            The historical fact of Leicester England is not easy to find I will admit, but the references used were obtained from Dr. Suzanne Humphries book, dissolving illusions. Her references regarding the Leicester account are easily vetted and considered by historians the world over to be accurate. I do not even know what whale.to is.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html – you mean her?

            Really? Wow, you are down the rabbit hole, aren’t you?

          • brian

            Her? A board certified physician? Wow, you really have your head in the sand.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            She’s a homeopath now – and a loon.

          • brian

            She is a board certified medical doctor specializing in kidney diseases.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            She hasn’t been a real doctor in a very long while.

          • brian

            She never stopped being a doctor. This is not about her, this is about Leicester England and small pox.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            She’s a loon & she’s still wrong.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Reading through the material, which you don’t appear to have done, doesn’t give any credence to the idea that vaccinations in England contributed to cases of smallpox.

            Also, if you read about the Leicester Method, it involved strict quarantines, which later morphed into quarantines & vaccination – especially of medical staff, to stop outbreaks.

            It so happens that London, a heavily vaccinated but also much larger population, had fewer cases of Smallpox than Leicester did.

            Care to explain?

          • brian

            I have not seen any evidence that London had fewer cases of smallpox then Leicester. Where did you read that?

          • suz norkan

            They always ignore Hippocrates – let food be your medicine!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Medical science has advanced a little bit since then.

          • suz norkan

            To the contrary, current science is finding that Hippocrates and our ancestors were correct! It’s also well known that much of your beloved pharma is simply synthesized ingredients of substances [foods, herbs] used to keep us healthy all along!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Really? – then provide the citations.

          • suz norkan

            I won’t do your research for you, darlin’! Do you enjoy playing stupid, or are you really?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            You made the claim, thus you need to provide the evidence.

            If you can’t, it doesn’t exist.

          • suz norkan

            Under whose terms? Certainly not in THIS commentaries tos! Sounds more like one of your biased ‘scientism’ blogs to me!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            If you can’t provide simple citations, then they don’t exist.

            Seriously, I’m not going to take your word for it.

          • suz norkan

            Easily found in ANY current news source! Get crackerjackin’ and look it up for yourself!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Then it should be easy for you to provide.

          • suz norkan

            Not doing YOUR work for ya, darlin’! I’ve done mine!

          • Justthefacts

            Its impossible work. You are a troll that makes things up and then lies about them. You got nothing and there is nothing.

          • suz norkan

            If you think that there’s not enormous amounts of current and reliable sources readily available, touting the healthy, medical properties in the ingredients of our everyday organic foods, than you’re even more uneducated, unsophisticated, unenlightened [out of touch with current reality], unpersevering and unwise than I thought, and truly have no business posting your trolling lies on a commentary where the subject is health related!

          • Justthefacts

            And Yet………even with all of that informaiton……YOU GOT NOTHING.
            .
            There is no need to explain your inadequacies with a wealth of information. We all know you can’t post sources because you are a lying Troll.

          • suz norkan

            I CAN but I won’t! Put down your video games, fairy girl and do your own research!

            As always, I’ll NOT waste my time on your insignificant ‘evidence exchanges!’

            The STALKING, lying, spamming troll, with ‘nothing’ but DOTS, is YOU, JESTthefacts! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            Troll outed as a troll. Angry troll is angry.

          • Justthefacts

            No its not. You made it all up. You got nothing.

          • suz norkan

            Au contraire, fairy girl! However, to specify things for you, to ALL but you illiterate, the data is easily found in an current news source, JESTthefacts! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            You are a troll. You never provide any evidence for your trolling.

          • suz norkan

            I’m not a troll ‘Provide any evidence for trolling!’ Har d har! You’re a silly fairy girl!

            However, I’m certainly NOT going to spam contents all over the commentaries, especially when the data is easily found in any news/science medium, JESTthefacts!

          • Justthefacts

            You are a liar. You have zero evidence. you are a Troll.
            .
            Prove it.

          • suz norkan

            I have ‘no evidence’ of being a troll since I’m NOT one! Har d har!

            Neither am I a liar!

            Learn to read, write, spell and type before trying to play on the grown up commentaries, JESTthefacts!

            Your puerile posts are proof enough of YOUR trolling, though! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SUZ NORKAN IS A TROLL:
            .
            Poster Suz Norkan has many Disqus accounts and also posts as suznorkan, suz_norkin, numero uno suz norkan, realsuznorkan, kroz oluju, Jahara mahayame, quasi tempestas, Licha Hericane, Evie Saleegents, yall ADORE suz 😉 and “guest” so she can insult and troll under different names. She has been banned from at least 9 websites 11 times for poor behavior. That is mostly what she does and all she does on-line.

            RH Reality Check …….. banned (twice)
            AlterNet …………………… banned
            Raw Story ……………….. banned
            Mercury News ………….. banned (twice)
            Washington Times ……. banned
            A shot of prevention ….. banned
            LAist………………………… banned
            Patch………………………. banned
            Breitbart…………………… banned
            The Hill………………………Banned
            KSNT………………………..banned

          • Justthefacts

            Stop saying you are not a troll and I’ll stop proving it, for now.
            .
            You are a Troll. Plain and simple.

          • suz norkan

            FURTHER LYING SPAM FROM JESTERofthefacts!

            And as always, you LIE about the reasons for such predicially censored estrangements, since you are a stalking, harassing, SPAMMING & LYING TROLL, JESTthefacts!

            You also deceitfully omit that most of my name changes occurred, when you and your astroBRAT pals violated disqus tos with a parody account in THESE names!

            However, for as much as we realize that you enjoy obsessing over suz to the point of incessantly remaining off topic in all the commentaries that you participate in, DO try to ascertain what the correct subject is, fairy girl! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            Are you crying a little? I like it when you cry and scream.
            .
            Miserable Troll is miserable.

          • Sonja Henie

            Paying bills? You mean you’re paid to post here? What a surprise!

          • suz norkan

            You would say such since your ‘bill paying’ provisions include your include your disbursements from ‘SHILLS R US!’

            My setup simply goes by the term ‘online banking,’ KATIA! 😉

          • Justthefacts

            That message from Suz was paid for by TROLLS R US!!

          • suz norkan

            And yet another WITLESS and PARROTED response from JESTthefacts, brought to you by SPAMMERS AND SCAMMERS! 😉

          • Joseph

            I don’t get paid for this, I do it for free. It’s hard to prove to you, because I am NOT willing to transmit sensitive financial information *tax records, medical and work history* online.
            But trust me, I ain’t getting rich from this.
            That being said, I do note that nowhere did you claim to be paid for this.
            This is a major ethical divide between the two of us.
            You assume we have a financial incentive. Nothing would make you change your mind.
            We assume you don’t. It would take reasonable evidence to make us change our minds.

          • suz norkan

            Clap! Clap! Clap! Outstanding performance! Played out exactly as written in the script.

            Just kidding! I don’t know you Joseph! But time [and your future posts, and perhaps your allegiance to certain posters you may frequently associate with] will tell!

            However, you’re likely not as bright as you’d like to think you are! Katia/sonja drew first blood; [reread through the posts consecutively] so please ‘sell it’ to her, Joseph! 😉

          • Joseph

            I’m autistic.
            My measured verbal and mathematical IQ are very high. My social IQ (the ability to pick up facial cues, understand people, and the like) is in the negative numbers.
            So no, I don’t consider myself brilliant.
            I have, however, one thing you may not have… Experience.
            I am old, and that has given me a perspective some younger people lack. Not wisdom, perhaps, perspective.
            And I can recognize the truth: Vaccines, immunization science is winning the vaccine wars. I appreciate this is an uncomfortable truth for you, but look at the evidence.
            Meanwhile, I shall go applaud Robert DeNiro for his decision to remove Wakefield’s lies from the Tribeca film festival. Whatever his flaws, he had the courage to admit he made a mistake and he rectified it.

          • suz norkan

            Clap! Clap! Clap! Sounds like you’re simply a neurotic old fool who BOUGHT into the misdiagnosis mania when ‘unscientific’ dsmv threw in all AND the kitchen sink.

            Sorry! Suz don’t ‘DO’ ‘neurodiversies! No need to reply!

            The p.r. is to die for. People always want something they can’t have! De Niro is Wag the Dog, all over again; diverting attention away from the movie, to the pharma propaganda controversy, having people wanting to see it even MORE! I can’t wait! 😉

          • Joseph

            Meanwhile, those of us who support sound science and good medicine are gloating at your discomfiture.
            Yeah, I know, it’s not civil.
            But then, I don’t claim to be civil. 🙂

          • suz norkan

            Pffft! Someone needs to learn some reading comprehension skills!

            Let’s see! You might want a ‘label’ for THAT too, as you do for every other burp and fart!

            Here’s one! ILLITERATE! Re read my comment a few more times. Maybe it’ll sink in once you open that myopic mind!

            You’re a neophyte; not ready for prime time!

            Buh bye, Jospeh! 😉

          • Joseph

            As best I can tell, a reply you made to me was somehow deleted. If it was intentional on your part, that’s fine, but I have seen replies of mine get wiped.
            Just a heads up.

          • Boris Ogon

            Clap! Clap! Clap! Sounds like you’re simply a neurotic old fool….

            Your next pseudonym should be “Exhaustion of Irony.”

          • suz norkan

            I like ‘blowhard of banal hackneyed hokum’ for you, persona non grata, Borings! 😉

            suz norkan

          • Joseph

            Whatever the reason, about half my posts don’t go through. I’m not sure what the issue is, I try to be civil and to the point.
            Your claim that I’m not as bright as I think I am?
            Well, I am autistic. I have a very high verbal and math level, I have been told in the genius range.
            That’s more than offset by a total lack of social and communication skills, way more than offset.
            So you may be wrong about my thinking I’m brilliant.
            I’m more likely to believe that I am, well, different than you. Not broken, not evil, not “dumb”…
            Just different.

          • suz norkan

            Nope! You’re not brilliant! Brilliant is 117-140; youngest daughter and grandson [from my oldest daughter who was categorized as gifted but NOT autistic]!

            My youngest daughter and oldest grandson are clearly what is mislabeled today as ‘autism’ and truly exhibited neuro regression!

            You’re preachin’ to the choir, dude! You’re merely a foolish old nerd who BOUGHT into the neurodiversie movement!

            You’re ‘DUMB’ and different! So what! Who cares! You need a label for that! Go ‘sell it’ to the neurodiversies! Maybe they’ll care! 😉

          • transportjohnny

            https://youtu.be/8elE7Ct1jWw

            Another oldie but a goodie!

          • Justthefacts
          • transportjohnny

            Kinda stupid actually!!!

          • transportjohnny
          • Justthefacts
          • transportjohnny

            Pretty sure Stupid!!!!!

          • Boris Ogon

            I have ‘no evidence’ of being a troll since I’m NOT one! Har d har!

            Neither am I a liar!

            Learn to read, write, spell and type before trying to play on the grown up commentaries, JESTthefacts!

            Your puerile posts are proof enough of YOUR trolling, though! 😉

            Heh. Listen, Dribbles (née Squirtz, by your own account), if anybody were willing to expend the effort needed to feed your “comments” into a primitive Markov chain generator, the resultant Skuzbot would run circles around you.

          • suz norkan

            Hush darlin’! Hear that! Is there a persona non grata puking up hackneyed hokum in the room!

            If you acknowledge, have a happy easter, Borings! 😉

          • transportjohnny

            Suz….am I blocked from this article????

          • suz norkan

            I read you here, loud and clear, tj!

            However, I’m about to leave for several hours.

            Were you concerned of some unfair censorship here?

            I’ll try to decipher more of your comment when I return.

            Hope all is well, tj!

          • Justthefacts

            Poster Suz Norkan has many Disqus accounts and also posts as suznorkan, suz_norkin, numero uno suz norkan, realsuznorkan, kroz oluju, Jahara mahayame, quasi tempestas, Licha Hericane, Evie Saleegents, yall ADORE suz 😉 and “guest” so she can insult and troll under different names. She has been banned from at least 9 websites 11 times for poor behavior. That is mostly what she does and all she does on-line.

            RH Reality Check …….. banned (twice)
            AlterNet …………………… banned
            Raw Story ……………….. banned
            Mercury News ………….. banned (twice)
            Washington Times ……. banned
            A shot of prevention ….. banned
            LAist………………………… banned
            Patch………………………. banned
            Breitbart…………………… banned
            The Hill………………………Banned
            KSNT………………………..banned

          • suz norkan

            Oh! Even MORE spam from JESTERofthefacts!

            And as always, you LIE about the reasons for such predicially censored estrangements, since you are a stalking, harassing, SPAMMING & LYING TROLL, JESTthefacts!

            You also deceitfully omit that most of my name changes occurred, when you and your astroBRAT pals violated disqus tos with a parody account in THESE names!

            However, for as much as we realize that you enjoy obsessing over suz to the point of incessantly remaining off topic in all the commentaries that you participate in, DO try to ascertain what the correct subject is, fairy girl! 😉

          • Sonja Henie

            She doesn’t seem to be practicing nephrology at the moment.

          • Joseph

            Wakefield was a board certified physician.
            I can ALWAYS find one or even 100 bad apples in any profession.
            That’s why I suggest you go with the 99.9%+ of medical professionals (meaning MD’s, people with good credentials, not naturopaths or chiro’s) who say “Humphries is wrong, Vaccines work.”

          • Brian

            There’s really no faster way to destroy your credibility than to cite Suzanne Humphries as a source.

          • Joseph

            Suzanne Humphries is a well known anti vaccine activist.
            I’m not calling her a crank, mind, but her biases are documented and she ignores science in defending her quackery.

          • Joseph

            Isn’t Whale a site that denies the Holocaust?
            That in itself tells me it’s home to fraud and chicanery.

          • Joseph

            The first judgement involving immunization was SCOTUS in, I think, 1905. It favored mandatory immunization against smallpox.
            Since then every case that’s ever landed in SCOTUS has wound up being decided on a pro vaccine basis.

            Now I don’t think immunization policy should be decided by the courts, most especially because these people are not experts, but it is pleasant to know that in this area, the law supports good science.

        • Sonja Henie

          Funny, you guys use the “Founding Fathers” as if they were gods when they agree with you. Hypocrites all of you!

    • Justthefacts

      There are about one million vaccinations per day and the injury rate is less than one in one million making vaccinations one of the safest human activities ever invented. Vaccinations are safer than a trip to the bathroom. A vaccination is not a “medical procedure”. You are just making things up.
      .
      Your wild claims are stupid and irresponsible. They reflect a complete lack of understanding on the math and science involved.
      .
      Car air bags are more dangerous and mandatory. Traffic, laws are mandatory and many people die driving. Food regulations are admonitory and many people die eating. The difference is that vaccination are safer than all other mandatory activities.
      .
      Give up on that Nuremberg code crap. its does apply. nobody thinks it applies and you know it. since 1905, mandatory vaccinations have been legal and constitutional. Stop your lies and whining.

      • brian

        Injecting anyone with anything is a medical procedure. Claiming that a vaccine is not a medical procedure is ludicrous. It does not matter what your take is on the “science” of vaccines; it gives you no right to violate a human beings rights. Keep ignoring the Nuremburg code violations and you will find out the hard way that violating human rights is not taken lightly just like all those Nazi’s left hanging after WW2. I see you post on every vaccine discussion on the internet. You are clearly a paid shill. I post what I post for freedom and the future of my children. You are on the wrong side of history and will be remembered as such by your prodigy many years from now. If you really want to vaccinate me, then come on over with a needle and go for it chief. You see, it does not matter what you believe in, what science you have faith in or what you want others to do because you know best, right? It does not matter because you have no power over me, or anyone else. It does not matter how many crony politicians funded by MERCK you get to pass laws that violate a persons rights; I will not comply, and If you are a part of such evil I will track you down and have you arrested and tried for your part in all of this when this is all over. Keep it up; you are doing a great job of stealing fundamental rights and freedoms from our children. What a despicable, evil soul you must have.

        • suz norkan

          I adore your moxie, brian!

          • brian

            As I do yours.

        • Sonja Henie

          Yes, I’d love a retirement job getting paid to post pro-vaccine info on the internet. Tell me how!

          • brian

            First, go to the #HEARTHISWELL videos on youtube. Watch them all, then contact each family member and tell them that vaccines are safe, effective and do not cause Autism. I will pay you $100.00 when you are done. There you go! Your first pro-vaccine job offer!

          • Justthefacts

            It’s bad enough dealing with your craziness. Youtube is documented lunacy and doesn’t need to be discredited.

          • brian

            Tell that to one of the parents on that thread and see how that works out for you.

          • Justthefacts

            Just like talking to you, talking to blinded fanatics is a waste of time.

          • brian

            Yet you continue to do so. Must be getting PAID!!!

          • Justthefacts

            Crazy people like you are not a challenge. I like to see you lose what is left of your mind.

          • brian

            Then why not debate Mr. Roy? Afraid? You are nothing but a coward.

          • Justthefacts

            Because nobody will give a nutcase a voice. it implies that a debate exists. It doesn’t. There is no debate. There is science and there is nutcases. The only reason you nutcases want a podium is to claim you have an alternative argument and you don’t.
            .
            Mr. Roy will not debate. He will preach falsehoods to the faith faith based religion of anti-vaxx. That nonsense will not get a voice.
            .
            To be very clear. Nobody will debate Mr. Roy because his position is not worthy of discussion. Nobody will assist Mr. Roy in giving a voice to nonsense.

          • Joseph

            Nah,he’s like me.
            I like to mock stupidity fer FREE!

          • brian

            Then look into any mirror and speak; should give you loads of stupidity mocking there, and it’s free!

          • Joseph

            That was BRILLIANT, I’m still laughing!
            And no, no sarcasm intended. That was a sharp, intelligent retort and by god I have to applaud you for it. 🙂
            But I’m in a good mood anyway.
            I need to thank DeNiro for his courageous decision to admit he was wrong. It takes a good person to face up to a mistake and work to rectify it.

          • Joseph

            For whatever reason, many posts I made don’t make it through. If it seems I’m ignoring you, I am not.
            I wanted to say this about your last remark: It was flat out brilliant! And no, I’m not being sarcastic. I let myself walk into that train wreck, didn’t I?

            Well, let me wish you a happy holiday, enjoy it.
            I shall go re read DeNiro’s comment withdrawing that film by Wakefield. That made my day TOO. 🙂

          • Justthefacts

            There aren’t any parents with injured kids on this thread. You are delusional.

          • Joseph

            I can always find a parent who believes that his or her child’s autism, ASD, whatever was vaccine induced.
            Their child really has that medical condition, too.
            While my heart goes out to those parents, reason, logic, science, and evidence tell me that their belief it was a vaccine is a lie.
            But they are passionate in their beliefs because of their love for their child. I can sympathize with them.
            I have no sympathy for you.

          • brian

            Sure; you know better as to what happened to their child then they do. silly parents. Because you are so smart, right? You are vaccine damaged: I fee l sorry for you but I have no respect for you.

          • Joseph

            In many areas, no.
            In the area of immunization science, I am no expert, so I defer to them. The medical experts indicate that vaccine injury is so rare as to be a one in one million event or less. So… They know.
            They are the ones that I rely on.
            And your comment to me about being damaged?
            That tells the world so much about you, so little about me.
            As for your respect for me? I would expect you to dislike, fear, and hold no respect for me.
            I’m attacking your positions, which are biased and lies, with the truth. I know you have no honest comeback, so you have to fall back to the “Attack the messenger” position so common to the anti vaccine camp.
            But I’m not sorry for you. I have some respect for you as I respect all human beings, but…
            I reserve my grief and pity for those who your position kills or maims, the innocents you put at risk from measles, mumps, polio, diphtheria.

          • brian

            As if chemtrails do not exist. They are literally spraying barium and aluminum onto you, and you make fun of it. Whatever. I think I would trust what these pilots, chemists and biologists have to say over someone like you.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TM0N-w038I

            Are you going to make fun of them now?

          • Justthefacts

            I’ll bet you are a 9/11 truther also:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDMv56igc3s

          • Joseph

            So now Youtube videos replace sound medical knowledge.
            *sigh*
            And before you ask, I saw them.
            Propaganda at it’s finest.
            And risky? Oh god, people taking that advice could die.

          • Ron Roy

            Joseph it’s time to start getting a real education and to stop repeating the propaganda spread by the drug industry: http://www.know-vaccines.org/?page_id=456

          • Joseph

            I started off as anti vaccine.
            I did the research.
            Now I am staunchly for them.
            So what is your point?
            Oh, and again with an anti vaccine crank site posts, thinking that beats research?

            If you really want to change my mind, post PEER REVIEWED studies or meta studies that have been published in a high impact journal, studies that have passed rigorous examination and cross checking.

            But you can’t. You don’t have any.

            Now, one final comment from this irked autistic…
            You are loosing the battle where it counts. People who trust what you say are no longer trusting you. You’re loosing allies, you’re loosing the media, and you are loosing the legislatures.
            Enjoy chewing on that.
            Yeah, I’m autistic.
            Like every other autistic on earth I was born that way. Vaccines had nothing to do with it. Please don’t bother trying to convince me that they do, I would have to laugh at you.
            I’d rather just relax with some light reading, I have a good book by Dr. Offit I’ve wanted to crack open for some time. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            Autism was not mentioned in medical literature until 5 or 6 years after mass vaccination campaigns started. And as far as finding anything derogatory concerning vaccines in peer review journals your kidding right? Medical journals receive the bulk of their financing from drug companies they won’t bite the hand that feeds them. Here are a few statistics that slipped through the cracks: http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

          • brian

            “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” Marcia Angall.

          • Joseph

            That’s a sound argument; there is no doubt that the current journal research and peer review process has troubles.
            That being the case, my one best chance at knowing the truth is hard math, statistics.
            Almost all valid research on vaccines in general (I mean 99%+) that has been made over the past 60 years supports immunization safety and effectiveness.
            This is also born out by historical data. Diseases like measles did not stop happening until the vaccine came to eliminate them. (And yes, the death rate was dropping. Do not forget that mortality does NOT equal incidence, I refer to incidence only.)
            So… Rip out 60% of all research and throw it away. The remainder will support immunization science. It is backed up by history.
            This convinces me that immunization is the best strategy.

          • brian

            and you don’t have any independent studies that show vaccines to be safe and effective. Not one.

          • Joseph

            I am aware that if I were to cite any research by the CDC, any hospital, any medical university, and (of course, and I’ll give you this one at least) any vaccine manufacturer you would claim: Not independent.
            But how do you explain the fact that research done in Russia during the Soviet Union supports immunization? The same with China. Are our drug companies capable of reaching out that far?
            But (and I do this knowing you will claim the site is biased) here is a CDC overview of vaccine safety…
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/research/iomreports/index.html

          • brian

            Like the over 300,000 people that die every year in the US from pharmaceutical drugs?

          • Joseph

            I don’t know if that number is valid. And do you include supplements such as vitamins and herbs? There aren’t any statistics kept on them. But… Lets look at how vaccines are administered.
            They are administered by a medical professional according to schedule.
            A pharmaceutical drug like oxycontin (Spelling?) or aspirin comes in a bottle with x number of pills. You could take several or many pills in a fit of absent mindedness and easily overdose and die.
            You just can’t do that with vaccines, no doctor or pharmacist would hand out multiple packages to use at home.
            Prescription drugs can have unexpected interactions with other medications, leading to adverse effects and death. Vaccines have been tested RIGOROUSLY to avoid such problems. (If all other medications had to meet such scrutiny we would loose many of our OTC and prescription drugs, perhaps a majority would fail that standard.)
            So in a choice between taking a dose of aspirin or taking an immunization, which has a greater risk of serious side effects? It would be… aspirin.
            What would have a higher number of adverse side effects? Unless you count a sore arm from having a needle stuck in you, aspirin.
            But thank you for an interesting comment. 🙂

          • Joseph

            I am retired, I have to mock anti vaxxers for free.
            Kind of sucks, THINK of what I could have made if I was shilling fer Mercola. 🙁
            That’s the problem with having a conscience, though. I won’t lie for money.

          • brian

            You just lie for fun now, eh?

          • Joseph

            No, I mock people for fun.
            I don’t lie, if only because I’m not a politician.
            In addition, and more seriously, in an open forum like this one is I would have to expect that any real lie I made would be exposed. I would hope so, at least.
            And why would I want to lie? The evidence supports my position. In fact, and for the record, the evidence caused me to change my mind and to TAKE this pro immunization stance.
            Evidence. It trumps lies.
            Evidence. You don’t have it. The pro vaccine adherents do.

        • brian

          You do not know if I am a doctor, or a scientist. You do not know me, and you certainly do not know what I am capable of. Anyone reading this exchange will clearly agree that vaccines are a medical procedure. Every doctor on this planet would agree that vaccines are a medical procedure . You can make up your own definitions in the fantasy world you reside in which you are the king, and all must comply with your decree, but in reality vaccines are a medical procedure (a medical fact), and you are a nobody with no power over anyone. Not only are vaccines a medical procedure, but vaccines can, have and do cause harm; another indisputable scientific and medical fact. You are a liar, and I will call you a shill again. Any insults I receive from people of your most unclean character are but wonderful compliments. I have lost? Whatever; go back to your fantasy world. There is nothing I can do to show others your ignorance regarding this topic that you have not already done to yourself and your cause already. A powerless narcissist is a sad man. I hope you enjoy many years of such misery. Any more compliments for me?

          • Justthefacts

            Yes, I do know what you are capable of. You think that vaccinations are a medical procedure so you are definitely not a doctor or a scientist. You have made that very clear.
            .
            This is not a debate. the definition of a medical procedure is is a course of action intended to achieve a result in the care of persons with health problems. This is not up for debate. To be even more specific:
            .
            “An activity directed at or performed on an individual with the object of improving health, treating disease or injury, or making a diagnosis”
            International Dictionary of Medicine and Biology, Page 2297. ISBN 0-471-01849-X
            .
            “The act or conduct of diagnosis, treatment, or operation.”[
            Stedman’s Medical Dictionary, 27th ed. Page 1446. ISBN 0-683-40007-X
            .
            You are wrong. Plain ans simple. from this arrogant error, I can tell that you are not familiar with medical science and ignorant to your own educational limitations. You are a perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect.

          • brian

            You are just showing how ignorant you are. Vaccines are a medical procedure; if they were not, then you could get one at the drive through of McDonalds. Anytime anything is injected into anyone it is a medical procedure. Please, continue to argue this fact so that I can pee myself a little more.

          • Justthefacts

            MacDonald is not interested in the business. You need to go to Walgreens between the potato chips and the ice cream to get a vaccination. Sam’s Club and Costco will do them also. You can vaccinate your dog yourself. In some states, social workers can give vaccinations.
            .
            Yes, tell us all about how serous a procedure this is.
            .

          • brian

            Tell the kids injured by vaccines. Trained medical professionals give vaccines, no one else. I can not believe you actually think you are winning this argument. Vaccinations are a medical procedure. That is all there is to it. Please, continue to argue that they are not. You are really showing your true color (just one).

          • Justthefacts

            There is so few kids injured by vaccines that I can’t find one to tell.

            You are a nutcase that can’t accept the truth. By all definitions, vaccinations are not medical procedures. you are just a self righteous fanatic.
            .
            Vaccines are so harmless that the least trained people can give them and THAT IS A FACT!.

          • Joseph

            The main problem is transport and storage.
            Vaccines are the definition of the word: Perishable.
            We need research on new methods of immunization, and I have seen some. It is promising. We will soon see vaccines that can be stored at room temperature indefinitely, which will be applied by a slap on patch, and which will only take enough medical knowledge to recognize and react to a serious allergic reaction. (Odds of that, far less than one in one million, but it IS the most dangerous risk of immunization.)

          • Justthefacts

            You are right and that research in underway. As you know, making sure that they remain both safe and effective takes time. As of now, the safest and most controlled way to give a vaccine remains an injection for many reasons. I too look forward to the future.

          • Ron Roy

            That only proves that pharmaceutical companies will go to any length to make a buck. The pharmacists at a local store ( I will not name the store because the information given my sister was given in confidence by the pharmacists ) admitted they would never take the flu shot even though they give it to everyone else!

          • Lawrence McNamara

            “stories” don’t mean anything – actual scientific facts don’t support your position.

          • Ron Roy

            Sometimes stories are the only thing we can go by. The medical establishment does a good job of protecting it’s interests $$$$$$$$$. Drug companies, medical journals, medical associations, individual doctors all toe the line.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            So, you believe it is possible for there to be a worldwide conspiracy, involving millions of people – yet the US Government can’t keep it’s secrets off the front page of the New York Times?

            And why are these “stories” never confirmed, once they are examined closely?

            For example, during the Omnibus Hearings, videos were presented by the plaintiffs to supposedly show a “normal” child who suddenly regressed….but when the videos were shown, it was obvious that the child was showing signs of autism long before they were vaccinated.

            Sorry, but these “stories” never hold up under real scrutiny.

          • brian

            The Manhattan project employed over 120,000 people, and that secret didn’t get out, now did it? Again your conclusions are shown to be false and your knowledge of history poor.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Funny, because the Soviets knew quite well what was going on at Los Alamos.

            And it was during wartime…..in an extremely isolated part of the country, before the Internet or mass communication (like TV, for instance).

          • brian

            And the Soviets also know about the dangers of vaccines.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Funny, because they were actively involved in eradicating Smallpox.

          • brian

            Funny, because on the 5th of this month (March 2016) Putin had this to say:

            http://prepareforchange.net/2016/03/05/putin-exposes-vaccines/#content
            Funny, Russia, like nearly every other country in the world, does not allow pharmaceutical companies advertisement rights on TV. Funny, I guess you are brainwashed by the thousands of pharmaceutical commercials playing this minute alone. I bet by the time you read this 1000 drug commercials have had air time. Now that I think of it, better make that 10,000i; I bet a man with your IQ takes a while to read something.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Funny that you use Putin as a source, given that for all intents and purposes he’s a dictator….I have co-workers who had to flee Russia one step ahead of the FSB, just because they said something the government didn’t approve of.

            You are a hypocrite.

          • brian

            As if Russia is a dictatorship. How old are you; 100? The cold war is over FYI.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            I’ve certainly spent more time in Russia recently than you have, obviously.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Better still, the AMA recently took the position to ban drug ads from TV.

          • brian

            As if. The AMA IS RUN by pharmaceutical companies. Wow.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • Lawrence McNamara

            Today, kids die regularly from Diptheria in Russia, plus they have rampant alcoholism, and average monthly wages of less than $400.

            Not to mention it’s a dictatorship, with little to no real freedom.

          • AutismDadd

            And the USA wants the same for its citizens.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            See, how you’ve just gone completely into Cloud CuckooLand…..seriously.

          • AutismDadd

            Need me to UPS you some tissue baby?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Oh, and lifespans that are 20 – 30 years less than the rest of the developed world.

          • brian

            Yet they have healthier children. Their infant mortality rate makes us look like a 3rd world country. 1 in 3 children in the US has a chronic medical condition. Their lifespan is lower because of VODKA, not vaccines.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • brian

            I guess you are right; must be the booze killing the Russian babies. We only rank lower then Finland, Japan, Portugal, Czech Republic, Norway, Korea, Spain, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Belgium, France, Israel, Greece, Ireland, Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, UK, Canada, Poland, Hungary, New Zealand and Slovakia. That’s all.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And we are the only developed nation which doesn’t guarantee universal access to healthcare.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • AutismDadd

            The Omnibus Hearings were orchestrated and controlled and delivered its preconceived findings.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Yeah, keep believing that.

            the sky isn’t blue on your planet.

          • AutismDadd

            Whoa what a snappy informed and convincing comeback. Stooge alert!

          • Ron Roy

            Here are hundreds of doctors who went against vaccines after PERSONAL observations of the serious side effects:http://whale.to/m/critics.html

          • Lawrence McNamara

            For obvious reasons, that is not a credible source.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Again, citing a holocaust denial site isn’t doing much for your cause….

          • Justthefacts

            That has nothing to do with the number injured people. They can’t hide them unless they sent hit men after them. What you did is a “strawman” which is another deceptive debate technique. Nobody was taking Big Pharma, but you pulled it out of the air to make an unrelated point.
            .
            You don’t debate. You just screed.

          • Ron Roy

            Three deaths, in 5 years, from vaccines that the doctors admitted to in my small hometown alone and dozens of people have reported serious adverse events in the same time frame.

          • Justthefacts

            What is that town? Let’s check that out and see if you are lying.
            .
            Are you lying, Ron?
            .
            Do you have the VAERS reports for these deaths, Ron? Did you make them up?

          • Joseph

            Read my earlier reply, and prepare to gawk.
            I am pro vaccine, yet I am vaccine injured.
            I got the Cutter Labs vaccine, the one without Formaldehyde so the “inactivated” polio virus was active.
            It gave me polio.
            Polio.
            I was one of the lucky ones.
            I wasn’t crippled, I wasn’t killed.
            But I am vaccine injured.
            I would take the SAME VACCINE again in a HEARTBEAT if it were medically indicated.
            Why not? The risks of vaccine injury are NEGLIGIBLE. The risks from diseases are NOT.

          • brian

            Then you are an idiot in my opinion. Tell your story to the over 40,000 kids in India that are now paralyzed forever by the oral polio vaccine according to the India Journal of medical ethics. Tell that to Senator Pan’s aide that contracted Gullian Barre syndrome from the flu shot. Just because you want to play Russian roulette with your life does not mean you have the right to ask others to do so. It is never right to mandate a medical procedure that carries with it risk for the “safety” of another. Never. And if you believe otherwise then YOU are the enemy of free man everywhere. Thats’a fact Jack; err, Joseph.

          • Joseph

            No, actually it isn’t a fact.
            You refer to the blatant lie pushed out by Alex Jones of Infowars and his ilk about 47,000 children paralyzed in India.
            The cases of paralysis weren’t polio, they were an enterovirus. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19712176
            India is becoming free of cases of polio, seen here: http://www.polioeradication.org/tabid/461/iid/187/Default.aspx
            The relationship to the influenza vaccine that may have caused Guillian Barre syndrome is not proven, but the vaccine was removed as soon as it was realized there could be issues. (Vaccines are monitored for safety, and any hints that they could be harmful causes them to be yanked. The same isn’t true of any other medical procedure, where it has to be proven that the risk of harm is high before they are removed.)

            Now, one final word, your opinion on my being an idiot.
            I suggest you do NOT denigrate your enemies abilities. You set yourself up for failure. (Am I calling myself your enemy? On the subject of immunization, we ARE enemies. )

          • Boris Ogon

            Please, continue to argue this fact so that I can pee myself a little more.

            Baseline’s not cutting it for you?

          • Joseph

            All I know about you, all I care to learn about you, is shown in your comments.
            That’s enough to make me oppose your stances.

          • brian

            Yeah, because the freedom to chose what medical procedures on can adopt or ignore is so evil. Standing up for human rights and pointing out that mandating vaccines is a violation of the Nuremburg code and the AMA’s policy of informed consent is so bad. Whatever. You are opposed to freedom, and that is all I need to know about YOU!

          • Joseph

            Sorry, you loose again.
            Trying to link vaccines to Nazism? Nazism was responsible for millions of deaths.
            Immunizations are estimated to have saved many times more lives than Nazism cost.
            Arguing about a lack of freedom to not immunize?
            You can refuse to vaccinate. There is a price you must pay, but that’s true of everything in life. You want a shiny new car? Pay for it.
            One final note:
            Feel free to do what you want. But be aware that if you cause one single member of my family harm by causing them an infectious disease I will do what I can UNDER THE LAW to hold you responsible and liable.

      • Ron Roy

        Doctors under report medical errors, complications and deaths all the time:

        http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

        • Justthefacts

          Strawman – The word vaccine does not apper in your reference. That was completely unrelated.
          .
          An autism activist named Jim Laidler once reported to VAERS that a vaccine had turned him into The Incredible Hulk.
          .
          Public health officials were disappointed to learn that reports of autism to VAERS weren’t coming from parents, doctors, nurses, or nurse practitioners; they were coming from personal-injury lawyers… For the lawyers, VAERS reports hadn’t been a self-fulfilling prophecy; they’d been a self-generated prophecy.
          .
          VAERS reports are OVER reported, not under. These reports are filtered and actual injuries go through vaccine court. The numbers are very accurate.

        • Jonathan Graham

          Iatrogenics are a real thing. However evidence suggests that there are no deaths caused by vaccines. VSDI was examined for deaths within 30 days of vaccination and came up virtually empty.

          • Ron Roy

            You mean the NVICP not VSDI. There are far more injuries than deaths in developed countries. In the 70s doctor Archie Kalokerinos the chief physician on an aboriginal reservation in Australia reported that many ( 50% on one reservation) babies were dying immediately after being vaccinated. If it wasn’t for his honesty and persistence in finding out why this would have kept happening. Long story short he and Glen Dettman a pathologist discovered these babies were borderline scorbutic and the shock of all the vaccines killed them. The death rate dropped to 0 by giving them vitamin C a few days before vaccinating. After much more research he realized vaccines were a scam theorizing that if simply giving vitamin C would prevent deaths from vaccinations why wouldn’t it prevent the disease itself. My own children were never vaccinated and they NEVER got any childhood diseases even though they played with, vaccinated, kids who had them. A good diet with added supplements made them immune without compromising their health through vaccines.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You mean the NVICP not VSDI.

            No the Vaccine Safety Data Interlink. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26908690

            In the 70s doctor Archie Kalokerinos the chief physician on an aboriginal reservation in Australia reported that many ( 50% on one reservation) babies were dying immediately after being vaccinated.

            That is an exaggeration of even Kalokerinos tale.

          • Ron Roy

            Not an exaggeration at all I have his book ” Every Second Child ” right in front of me. You’re so much in denial concerning the dangers of vaccines that I can only believe you’re a paid shill. Oh and I post things here and on other sites/blogs and Facebook not to educate people like you but to educate and warn open minded people about the dangers of vaccines.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Not an exaggeration at all

            Please cite from the book where it says that 50% of the children on one reservation were dying immediately after vaccination. Anything less is an exaggeration.

            What the book actually says is that

            and looked as if it would reach, in some areas, 500 per 1 000. A

            “it looked as if” isn’t even a solid claim to 50%. It simply looked like it would reach 50% and as for it being “immediate” the books says

            Some would die within hours from acute vitamin C deficiency precipitated by the immunisation. Others would suffer immunological insults and die later from ‘pneumonia’, ‘gastroenteritis’ or ‘malnutrition’.

            …an hour is not immediate and the proportion is clearly not 100% of those who died. So clearly this is an exaggeration beyond the statement that:

            reported that many ( 50% on one reservation) babies were dying immediately after being vaccinated.

            Also his statement about children dying hours after immunization is hypothetical, that is it doesn’t represent anything that he actually observed.

          • Ron Roy

            I stand corrected the word IMMEDIATELY is not there that was the term he used in an interview he gave. But YOU fail to mention that not one baby died after vitamin C was used before vaccinating. Oh and the title to that chapter, you at least partially read, is ” The dangers of immunizations”.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I stand corrected the word IMMEDIATELY is not there that was the term he used in an interview he gave.

            Nor is there any credible indication that either 50% or immediately is the case. In the first paragraph I cite he seems to be saying that the figures were approaching 50% and as far as I can see in this book, this place (for which we have no name and therefore no ability to check) was approaching that level. So you exaggerate there but also in terms of timing of deaths – clearly in that chapter is imagined mechanism is that over many shots most would die. So as I said you are exaggerating Kalokerinos’s story.

            But YOU fail to mention

            …something that had nothing to do with the point I was making. Yes. That’s exactly what happens when most people talk. Own up to exaggerating.

    • Ron Roy

      And that doesn’t include the majority who can’t afford a lawyer to take the case not to mention those who believe their quacks when he tells them the vaccine wasn’t the cause of their child’s death or disability.

  • Ron Roy

    I’m amazed as to how many people ( paid shills ) come out of the woodwork, like cockroaches, when the safety of injecting poisons into helpless babies and children is questioned. To those of you who know and spread the truth about health destroying vaccines don’t get discouraged we are winning the war. I posted this challenge a few days ago, on this and many other sites / blogs and no one has taken me up on it. This is addressed to anyone who believes vaccines are beneficial: I will pay all traveling expenses to anyone willing to have a PUBLIC debate with me on the issue of the safety, efficacy and history of vaccines. I will rent a hall big enough to accommodate at least 400 people, for our debate, and at the end of it there will be a vote taken, by show of hands, as to who won if you win you’ve received an all expense paid trip to the White Mountains of NH and if I win you reimburse me all expenses. Put your money where your mouth is! Oh maybe the drug companies you work for will pay your expenses.

    • Justthefacts

      I’m amazed as to how many anti-vaxxer ( nutcases ) come out of the
      woodwork, like cockroaches, when the safety of vaccinations are confirmed. To those of you who know and spread the truth about the health benefits of vaccines and how they have saves millions of lives know that we are winning the war. This nutcase above thinks he can recover lost ground by talking somebody into a debate over science which, he does not understand, is NOT a matter of opinion. He posted this challenge a few days ago and all of us are smart enough to know it is a waste of time. We all know that a PUBLIC debate will only give validity to insane beliefs and we all know they should just be dismissed and disregarded. We rational people know that science is not a matter of opinion or subject to a vote so we won’t waste out time with a desperate nutcase who is trying you make his bad ideas a legitimate position. They are not. His money is just to there to build a platform for his mouth.

      • brian

        Again, your delusional reality somehow makes you think that you and you alone are capable of critical thinking. Your interpretation of science does not give you the right to mandate that science onto others. It never has, and it never will. You won’t debate Mr. Roy because you are afraid that you will be exposed, and we will be able to identify you. You are also afraid that I will be there (and I will), and I will ask to debate you outside. That is not a threat, but a promise.

        • Mike Stevens

          “Delusional reality”?
          Always knew you were an (oxy)moron, now we have the proof.

        • Justthefacts

          What you miss is that I do not stand alone. in fact, we outnumber you by multitudes. Through careful deliberation over decades, it is known that your position is without basis. You position is absurd and not worthy of consideration. Your ideas are not worthy of any consideration.
          .
          We do not need to debate anyone over rationality to win. We only need to not give falsehood quarter. We shall continue to do exactly that as we push the vaccination rate higher every month.
          .
          It’s your desperation that tells all that you see your marginal false beliefs waning away. You are a very small, weak voice fading to nothing.

          • brian

            You have no idea how many quiet mothers and fathers live on your street with vaccine injured kids just waiting for a chance to run tyrants like you out covered in tar and feathers. Following the majority is not based in science. The truth has 4 stages:1.It is ignored. 2. It is ridiculed. 3. It is fought (you will lose that one), and 4. it is accepted. As you continue to cling to your delusional ideologies and tyrannical beliefs what little power you had is slipping from your fingers. Your next card is to fight with violence and forced assaults onto others, imposing your will. This is when your true nature will be exposed and you will be remembered as the tyrants that you are. Your prodigy will curse your name. As if the anti-vaccination movement is loosing; please. There have never been more people opposed to vaccination as now, and we are growing rapidly every minute of every hour of every day. By every measure, those that do not vaccinate are the most educated people in the population; do you really think that we will allow tyrannical clowns like you dictate the narrative? You are a fool, and history will remember you as such.

          • Justthefacts

            I know exactly how many quiet mothers and fathers live on my street with vaccine injured kids. The answer is ZERO. Here are two reasons:

            1. You have no idea were I live. As unusual, you run on assumptions. The only assumption you make that is worse is thinking that you know anything about the actual number of vaccine injured kids and anti-vaxxers. You are a member of the lunatic fringe.

            2. Since the injury rate is less than one in one million, It is safe to say “zero” on nearly any street. The only thing that is swollen more than your imagination of anti-vaxx numbers is the size of your head.

            The truth of science does not follow the majority, but in this case, it is true just because the truth is obvious to most.
            .
            Violence in unnecessary. The laws and rules will marginalize opposition. Violence is a tool of the weak.
            .
            If the anti- vaxx movement is so string, why are you losing ground in every state? Exemption are only become harder to get. Point out just one state where exemptions are easier now that five years ago.
            .
            Just one?
            .
            It is your disconnect with reality that makes you easy to defeat.

          • brian

            We shall see. Anyone that promotes laws that violate a persons human rights will be held accountable.

          • Justthefacts

            Since nobody is violating anybody’s human rights, nobody has anything to fear.

          • brian

            That’s what the Nazi’s said.

          • Justthefacts

            reducto ad hitlerum – The tactic used when you lose a debate. Just call the other person Hilter.

          • brian

            What a convenient way to avoid an argument; ignore anything that brings up the king of fascism when acting like a fascist. Perfect tyrant tool.

          • Justthefacts

            You are not arguing. You are just insulting. You have been defeated and reduced to blind anger. It’s hilarious.

          • brian

            You are right. I am filled with blind anger. And I hold it all for you, for one day I will find out who you are.

          • Justthefacts

            Go ask your mother.

          • Boris Ogon

            You are right. I am filled with blind anger. And I hold it all for you, for one day I will find out who you are.

            Ooh, “brian”/”Jason” has been reduced to making “threats.”

          • brian

            Those are promises, not threats.

          • Boris Ogon

            Those are promises, not threats.

            Do you have a timetable in mind for “one day”? A plan? Or are you simply further demonstrating that you have nothing but bluster? (Well, in addition to your demonstrated technical cluelessness, which seems likely to stymie this “operation,” but whatever.)

          • brian

            The reason for fundamental rights being eroded in each state is not because vaccines are so safe and effective; it is because pharmaceutical companies lobby politicians more then any other industry on earth. And if there are so many pro-vaccine proponents out there, where are they are on this thread? I just see YOU at this point, and you are a paid shill. If you are so right, then why not take Mr. Roy’s debate challenge? “The truth is obvious to most”, yes, I agree that most people now have reservations and serious questions regarding vaccinations. You are the one that is left out. How much stock do you have in GSK?

          • Justthefacts

            Haven’t you been counting the up-votes? You are defeated on every thread! Your denial fools your own eyes.
            .
            You will suffer and fail. Mr. Roy will suffer and fail. It is the fate of the deluded to suffer the effects of reality. Your craziness in sliding into history with all the other lunatics of the past.
            .
            Accept your fate. Accept reality. Accept the fact that you live a very good world and science has made your life even better.

          • Ron Roy

            Up votes that you and other shills post on their own statements.

          • Justthefacts

            So you are reduced to the Shill gambit. The most common form of surrender.
            .
            You are not a good debater, are you?

          • brian

            Well, why don’t you find out and debate him in public? Oh, that’s right, you are a lying coward.

          • Justthefacts

            I just showed everyone he is a liar and name caller. Those are just two of many reasons not to be in public with that reprobate.

          • brian

            Right. Those are two of the many reasons you SHOULD debate him you lying coward. It’s not name calling if it’s true.

          • Justthefacts

            Maybe if you cry and beg a little, I’ll consider it. Please cry and beg some more. I may pity you enough to consider it.
            .
            Just kidding, You can’t cry and beg enough for me to treat anti-vaxxer ideas with any validity. That’s not going to happen.

            .
            But please, continue to cry and beg me. It is entertaining.

          • brian

            If that statement is not a borg quote, I don’t know what is.

          • Joseph

            I am pro vaccine. I would take another polio shot in a heart beat if it were indicated necessary.
            And yet I have had polio, due directly to the vaccine I got. (I had one of the Cutter Labs vaccine, that one is in Wikipedia.) My case was mild, I suffered no permanent effects, but it is still true that I was injured by a vaccine. So…

            I am one of the one in one million, and I support vaccines because cases like mine notwithstanding…
            Vaccines save lives.
            Vaccines prevent suffering.

          • Justthefacts

            Like all of science and medicine, there have been errors and growing pains. There are countless incidents go back into the past. The Cutter incident was 60 years ago. You can go more resent than that. The original measles vaccine was replaced with the MMR for good reason. There was the Swine flu vaccine and now, the OPV is being replaced with the IPV because the new vaccines in even safer.

            Stories from history can be brought up for what they are; learning experiences, but the fact remains that between 1990 and 2015, the injury rate from vaccines is less than one in one million. Nobody is taking old vaccines. Also, by the standards, you are not any more injured than anyone else that had side effect, fever fit, or anything else that popped up, and then went away for good.

            You were lucky. I was lucky. People now don’t have to take the risks we took back in the day.

          • brian

            Got your SV40 though, didn’t you? Got cancer yet?

          • Justthefacts

            Nobody has ever got cancer from it. It also happened 52 years ago.
            .
            You are behind the times

          • brian

            SV 40 is a cancer causing monkey virus. This is a fact. It is also a fact that over 100 million Americans were injected with it via the polio vaccine. Do you have cancer yet?

          • Justthefacts

            Only in your dreams. Nobody has every got cancer from it and it has not been an issue for 53 years. I know it does not involve you because you are obviously way too young.

          • brian

            Quick question; do you have cancer? Because last time I checked 1 in 3 people will get cancer now in the US. Gee, I winder why? Maybe because over 100 million people were injected with a polio vaccine containing a monkey virus known as SV 40 which has been proven many times over in hundreds of studies to cause cancer. This is a fact. So if and when you get cancer, or someone else your age gets cancer, you can get the tumor tested for traces of SV 40 to see if that is where you got it from.

          • Boris Ogon

            The truth has 4 stages:1.It is ignored. 2. It is ridiculed. 3. It is fought (you will lose that one), and 4. it is accepted.

            It’s impressive to see someone add an extra step to the bogus Schopenhauer “quote.”

          • brian

            Gandhi actually. But who really cares what you think; you are not even on this planet as far as I am concerned. You live in Canada. Give Terrence and Philip my love.

          • Boris Ogon

            Gandhi actually.

            Congratulations, you lose even more badly.

            You live in Canada.

            This should be good. Do go on.

      • Ron Roy

        No takers I see I’m shocked! Yes the science is in that’s why many health professional are now refusing vaccines themselves. A few pediatricians in my area don’t even question those who refuse to vaccinate. I’ve accompanied a few people, in my area who refuse to vaccinate, to their doctors / pediatric appointments for moral support and not once did any doctor question their decision.

        • brian

          Yet we apparently are losing, huh? Our pediatrician didn’t question us either and stated that the science is not in, and that anyone that says things like “The science is settled” are not scientists and to be ignored because science is ever changing. These shills are not only shills, but cowardly shills. What role models, huh?

        • Justthefacts

          You will not debate. Your ideas are based on acedotal information. You will preach falsehoods to the faith faith based
          religion of anti-vaxx. That nonsense will not get a voice.
          .
          To
          be very clear. Nobody will debate you because your position is not
          worthy of discussion. Nobody will assist you in giving a
          voice to nonsense.
          .
          If you are winning, why do you want to debate? Can you name one state that has weaken vaccinations rules in the last five years? I can name ten that have made exemptions more difficult. Your false ideas have extended into your perception of reality. That is why you will lose.

      • Ron Roy

        See what the lead developer of the HPV vaccine has to say about your SAFE vaccines:http://dailyrecords.us/lead-developer-of-hpv-vaccines-comes-clean-warns-parents-young-girls-its-all-a-giant-deadly-scam/

        • Justthefacts

          Your anti-vaxx blog contradicted itself with the first sentence. The first sentence says:
          “Dr. Diane Harper was a leading expert responsible for the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies”
          She was NOT the lead developer. She was a tester. She didn’t develop anything.
          .
          Your blod post is about a misquoted speech she gave in 2008 so it’s not exactly news.Nothing every came of it. What she actually said was:

          “About eight in every ten women who have been sexually active will have HPV at some stage of their life. Normally there are no symptoms, and in 98 per cent of cases it clears itself. But in those cases where it doesn’t, and isn’t treated, it can lead to pre-cancerous cells which may develop into cervical cancer.”

          Oh, your blog post also mentions the CBS interveiw FROM 2009. I have some more resent news for you.

          In a 2012 peer-reviewed article about Cervarix, Dr. Harper states that “Cervarix is an excellent choice for both screened and unscreened populations due to its long-lasting protection, its broad protection for at least five oncogenic HPV types, the potential to use only one-dose for the same level of protection, and its safety.”

          You are a bit behind the times there, Mr, Roy. Dr. Diane Harper is all for the HPV vaccine.
          .
          You really need to be more prepared if you want to debate somebody.

          • brian

            You will argue with him via internet, but not on a public forum so as not to give him a voice, huh? Well, you are doing a good job keeping that promise.

          • Justthefacts

            A voice in a small hole. How many people do you think are reading this?
            .
            I have control here. I can research his lies and embarrass him as I just did. He is on my ground here. I hold the advantage here and I won’t give it up because of taunting from a loser like you.
            .
            Do you have anything to add other than your disgust at being defeated?

          • brian

            You do not have control here, or anywhere else for that matter. If you want to embarrass someone by dominating and exposing lies, then please explain to me why it is that the CDC still uses the research of Dr. Poul Thorsen whom is on the FBI’s most wanted list for taking the money he was given by the CDC to do research regarding vaccines and autism and bought a house and motorcycles instead. This is the science you rely upon. Explain to me what there is not a single independent scientific study that proves vaccines are safe and effective. Not one. Post one if you can find it. (Any postings of any studies that start with CDC, or NIH or any of the other hundreds of alphabet gov. agencies are NOT independent). Go for it big buy, show us your control.

          • Justthefacts

            Yiou should not believe everything you read on anti-vaxx sites.
            .
            Go to the CDC website. Search on “Poul Thorsen”. He has been removed from the two pages that referenced him long, long ago. You can’t find his name on the CDC website.
            .
            You don’t know what you are talking about.

          • brian

            Right. You are a liar. If you go to the CDC website and type in Poul Thorsen two papers come up; “Thimerisol in vaccines” and “Vaccine Safety”. You lie. The CDC still uses this criminals work, and you still use his work to defend your stance. This was even discussed during a congressional hearing. These are facts that you can’t dispute, so you just lie. How about that independent study that shows vaccines are safe and effective? Find that yet? Shill.

          • Justthefacts

            You are not a lair; you are stupid.
            .
            Those are to webpages, not papers, and as I told you in my post, the search engine is backdated. The name “Poul Thorsen” does not show up on those pages at all.

            You didn’t bother to look. It’s an example of your research skills.

            There are thousands of papers that show that vaccines are safe, and thousands more that show they are effective. You can find you way out of a paper bag, much less find a study. Go back to the CDC website and pick a vaccine. It will lead you to the testing.

          • brian

            Post one of those thousands of papers; not one is independent. Congressman Bill Posey held congressional hearings with CDC’s Dr. Boyle about the CDC’s use of Thorsen’s work to defend the CDC’s stance that vaccines do not cause autism, so denying this just shows your ignorance. The CDC is corrupt; an inconvenient truth for people like you. You really want to know who I am, don’t you? Tell you what; give me your contact info and I will get a hold of you.

          • Justthefacts

            So now we have it. A study is only independent is you like it. By your standards, all universities, laboratories, and government are out. So it clear that there are thousands of studies and papers that show that vaccines are safe an effective, but you don’t like them.
            .
            in your expert, internet educated opinion.
            .
            I see you found out that you are wrong again. Poul Thorsen is not promoted by the CDC, is he? Now you try to say he is promoted by other people. How does it feel to be that desperate?

          • brian

            “How does it feel to be that desperate?”
            I don’t know. If anyone here seems desperate it is you; implying that you know who I am, as if that has any merit to this conversation. Come on over with that needle chief. I will be waiting.

          • Ron Roy

            Dr. Harper eventually denied making the statements that she actually made. Why we can only speculate but it’s a known fact that if anyone in the medical field says anything that upsets the bottom line ( $$$$$$ ) of big pharm the price paid is a lifetime of blacklisting and persecution. Read the following article for proof and quotes of what she did say before she ” changed her mind “:http://www.naturalnews.com/027225_vaccine_cancer_cervical.html

          • Justthefacts

            So you knew about her? You intentionally posted a source that you knew was discredited. You are not an honest debater, are you?Why would anyone what to debate with a liar? They would spend all the time having to point out lies as opposed to the subject.
            .
            Thanks for confirming the silliness of debating you in public.

            You really should not quote NaturalNews. I hope this is the last time I have to hang that site around your neck:
            .
            Natural News is a website for the sale of various dietary supplements, promotion of alternative medicine, controversial nutrition and health claims, and various conspiracy theories, such as “chemtrails”, chemophobic claims. It has also spread conspiracy theories about the Zika virus allegedly being spread by genetically modified mosquitoes

            On August 11, 2014, Natural News published a blog post promoting a homeopathic treatment for Ebola.
            .
            The site’s founder, Michael Allen “Mike” Adams is an AIDS denialist, a 9/11 truther, a birther, and endorsed conspiracy theories surrounding the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, those surrounding the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, and those involving Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.

            Are you talking about THAT Naturalnews?

    • suz norkan

      I’d travel to see that if it isn’t too cold when yall have this debate. Put me and my daughter down as 2 of the 400! I’m checking NH on the map right now! Thanks Ron Roy! 😉

    • Jonathan Graham

      As long as the only people who get to vote have taken statistics at the post-secondary level. I’m happy to participate.

      • Ron Roy

        Oh I guarantee there will be many health professionals in the audience. Many heath professionals, in my hometown, agree with me and they will love to see those who don’t look foolish.

        • Jonathan Graham

          Heath professionals are not necessarily people who have taken post-secondary level statistics. Even those who do aren’t exactly the top of the heap in that department. So again, If only people with post-secondary statistics can vote. I’d be happy to try and fit this into my schedule.

          • brian

            Always have to have stipulations, huh? You just can’t debate Mr. Roy on the topic at hand; you need to fill the audience with people whom have had statistics? What a joke. What a coward.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Always have to have stipulations, huh?

            So other than making a statistical argument how do you argue the hypothesis: “X is safe and effective”? While you’re thinking about that, ask yourself if people are generally intuitively skilled at statistics. The answer is: They aren’t. They are generally awful at it.

            It’s cute that you think you can bully someone online by calling them a coward.

          • brian

            You are a coward. You have an opportunity to debate this issue in public and you refuse to do so. As if any debates have the requirement of the audience holding some sort of degree; whatever. I will give you $100.00 just for showing up. People do not have to be statisticians in order to make an informed decision, and it is ludicrous to suggest such nonsense. “There are lies, damdable lies, and statistics” Mark Twain
            And you are a coward. Just making sure you got that right.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You are a coward. You have an opportunity to debate this issue in public and you refuse to do so.

            More bullying. I wonder if you were the one who got pushed down in the playground or were you the one doing the pushing?

            People do not have to be statisticians in order to make an informed decision

            In other words you either believe that the statement “Vaccine X is safe and effective” requires no knoweldge of statistics whatsoever to understand or that people do not need to be informed to make an informed decision. I’d like to hear your argument for either.

            “There are lies, damdable lies, and statistics” Mark Twain

            “I’ve forgotten more about math than Mark Twain ever knew” – Me

            I will give you $100.00 just for showing up.

            My hourly consulting rate for companies is about $100 USD. How many hours do you think it takes out of my life to come from Canada to you?

          • brian

            Canada is all I had to read. You win.

          • Justthefacts

            Gee Jason, do you call everyone a coward?
            .
            Why don’t you you actually try to say something slightly interesting.

          • brian

            My name is not Jason. Have you been trying to find out who I am? Why don’t you just give me a call? My number is (772) 867-5309

          • Ron Roy

            You insult the average person by assuming they cannot think for themselves. Even juries, for the most severe crimes, are made up of average people. I guess any excuse to avoid exposure, to your lack of knowledge on the issue of vaccines, is par for the course. Medical doctors and nurses have refused to an open debate with me so I take that as a compliment and it also lets people see that the so called experts are afraid of looking bad.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You insult the average person by assuming they cannot think for themselves.

            They can think for themselves but they are simply not trained to think correctly about statistics. I see this every. single. day. the fact that you don’t kind of says that you don’t know squat about statistical analysis.

            This is, like it or not a statistical issue. If you believe that some sufficiently sized group of people can make a correct decision based on information presented to them by two people in what (an hour?). Then you might as well stop all clinical trials. Since you could instead just have a couple of researchers lecture some ordinary people about some proposed biological mechanism and then have them vote.

            Even juries, for the most severe crimes, are made up of average people.

            They are, and they represent an exceptionally low standard of evidence.

            I guess any excuse to avoid exposure, to your lack of knowledge on the issue of vaccines,

            So you’re backing out? When the jury is filled with only statisticians you don’t think you have a hope eh?

            For the record I don’t claim any special knowledge of vaccines I do claim to understand what the studies say which is, as I’ve said – a question of statistics.

          • Ron Roy

            Backing out never! I’m chomping at the bit. Send me your contact information so I can send you a contract to sign. Oh and you can bring all the ” help” you want. You’ll need it. They pay their own expenses of course. Oh this will be the last time I comment on your lies if you don’t send me your contact info. My duty is to inform those who are not paid shills. My time is better spent informing as many people as I can about the DANGERS of vaccines.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Backing out never!

            So you agree that only people with some post-secondary level of knowledge of statistics can vote. Do you care if it’s a test or an educational requirement?
            Also, we haven’t discussed the details as to what question is being voted on. I suggest: “Is it reasonable to believe that vaccines are safe and effective.” but I’m somewhat flexible there – we could talk about a specific vaccine if you like.
            Also you haven’t discussed what happens in the case of a tie.
            or…what constitutes quorum?
            or…what constitutes a win?

            These are all reasonable questions. So I rather suspect you are effectively backing out.

            My duty is to inform those who are not paid shills. My time is better spent informing as many people as I can about the DANGERS of vaccines.

            Yes, it’s probably more satisfying for the wolf to prey on the weak…for the wolf anyway.

          • Jenny Higgs

            Great. Present them then.

          • AutismDadd

            Jonathon Graham AKA George Dubya will cure your insomnia and you constipation with his super powers.

      • Ron Roy

        I’d be glad to see you there. Now are you taking me up on my challenge? If so I need your address so I can mail you a contract.

        • Jonathan Graham

          Do you agree that only people who have university credit(s) in statistics can vote?

      • AutismDadd

        Did someone say cockroach?

    • Jenny Higgs

      Any actual evidence anyone here is getting paid?

  • brian

    What would be great is if we could expose these shills and actually put a face with a name. Any hackers out there interested in matching IP addresses with some of the commenters?

    • Justthefacts

      And who are you again? Your profile doesn’t even say where you are. One think for sure, we all know you are a hypocrite.

      • brian

        I am who I am. Thanks for the compliment.

        • Justthefacts

          Only a troll would consider that a complement.

          • brian

            Only a shill would keep them coming. Do you get paid for each letter, or each word?

          • Justthefacts

            It looks like YOU are looking for the last word.

          • brian

            What did that comment get you $$$?

          • Justthefacts

            I see you still want the last word. Which anti-vaxx site is paying you?

          • brian

            Why not take Mr. Roy up on his offer? You can get the last word there.

          • Justthefacts

            Mr.
            Roy will not debate. He will preach falsehoods to the faith faith based
            religion of anti-vaxx. That nonsense will not get a voice.
            .
            To
            be very clear. Nobody will debate Mr. Roy because his position is not
            worthy of discussion. Nobody will assist Mr. Roy in getting giving a
            voice to nonsense.

          • brian

            Mr. Roy has offered you a free ride; I will sweeten the pot and pay you $100.00 cash if you show up to debate him. Cowards.

          • Justthefacts

            See, I’m not a shill. I won’t take his money.
            .
            We win by not debating a nutcase. That’s how that works.

          • brian

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Delusions of grandeur; you win by not debating! Did you send this unicorn to my dreams, or am I imagining it?

          • Justthefacts

            Delusion of Grandeur is believing that anyone buys your story considering that Trump walked away from a debate last week because………he is winning!
            .
            Please cry a little more for me, sad loser.

          • brian

            Now vaccines and trump are together?

          • Justthefacts

            Trump is a valid example of what people do when they are winning just as you are a valid example of what people do when they are losing…….

          • brian

            Right. Keep telling yourself that.

          • brian

            How utterly despicable you are. You sit around all day and debate those that oppose your lies and pseudo-science on these threads week after week, month after month, and when someone offer you the chance to publicly debate him and to prove your right, you defend your cowardly decline by stating that just simply debating him would be giving him a voice; as if he does not have one already. You are discredited. You are a liar. You are a shill, and everyone that reads this exchange can clearly see that you are all of those things, and a coward to boot. No one can admire you for those things. No one likes you, and no one will listen to you. There is a quickening happening; tyrants like you are surfacing everywhere. You will be defeated. In fact, you have already lost you disgrace of a man. Claiming that this topic is not worthy of discussion; it is not your place to chose what is worthy of discussion or not you tyrannical pig. In a free and open society like the USA we used to say “we agree to disagree”, but tyrants like you attempt the chilling effect. I can not wait for the day that people like you get the justice they deserve for the damages they have done to humanity. Rest assured, God will judge you much lighter then I will if I ever get the chance. Nast tyrant.

          • Justthefacts

            I don’t need to prove I’m right. To start with, none of my positions are my opinion. I don’t have a position to prove. I am only pointing out facts and science determined by true experts. Unlike you, I know I am not qualified to determine anything when it comes to vaccinations. Instead, I have researched the endless sciences, studies, facts, and sources and see the obvious true concerning the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.
            .
            You see, The very high value and benefits of vaccines have been proven to me. I have nothing to prove. The facts speak for themselves.
            .
            All I do here is make sure that nutcase rants are identified as such just in case a reader might think your stupid ideas are worthy of consideration. They are not.
            .
            “no one likes you” is another example of anti-vaxx denial when we look at the facts. According to disqus, the FACTS are that exactly 16,461 people have liked what I have said over the last year and a half. You score is 985. I am 16X more popular than you. Ron Roy is at 2409 over 3 years. I clearly destroy both of you combined in reader appreciation so I would suggest that you not start a popularity contest. See, I don’t need to debate loser nutcases.
            .
            “we agree to disagree” when both sides have valid points. Anti-vaxxers have zero valid points. We don’t debate racism, sexism, cannibalism, or any other soundly absurd concept and anti-vaxx is part of that group.
            .
            Try not to cry about being ignored. It becomes you.

            .

          • brian

            This is a popularity contest to you? What a loser! Your “science” is fraught with conflicts of interest, as has been pointed out to you time and again, yet you still claim it is the be all end all. It is not. You are not winning any popularity contests, and you have already contradicted yourself so many times that no one with a sane mind can take you seriously. Why don’t you debate Mr. Roy? Oh, because you don’t want to give him a voice, yet you admit you have been engaged in debating this issue for over 3 years. You are a coward and a shill.

          • Justthefacts

            This is a popularity contest for YOU, loser. YOU brought it up when you said “No one likes you”. It is a contest you started and LOST.
            .
            Call me some more names so we can confirm to everyone that you got nothing, loser.

          • brian

            As if I care what you think of me. You are the one that posted all your stats. Wow. Psycho.

          • Justthefacts

            YOU make it a popularity contest so I DID posts my stats to embarrass you. It’s still working. You can’t get over it! This is delightful!
            .
            Please cry about it. I like it when you cry. Don’t worry little camper, somebody may like you someday…….
            .

          • Boris Ogon

            In a free and open society like the USA we used to say “we agree to disagree”, but tyrants like you attempt the chilling effect.

            I take it that you are not all that familiar with Oliver Wendell Holmes.

        • suz norkan

          “One THINK” for sure, JESTthefacts DOESN’T! Har d har! 😉

      • Boris Ogon

        What would be great is if we could expose these shills and actually put a face with a name. Any hackers out there interested in matching IP addresses with some of the commenters?

        And who are you again?

        Y’know, I have tried to explain this before.

    • Gfy.

      • brian

        As if everyone knows what Gfy means. No one does. Is it some secret Pasta prayer?

        • Sorry that went over your head. Let me see if I can help…
          bfy.tw/4x0r

          • brian

            As if. And where is your Pasta God?

          • As my name clearly implies, I’m an atheist. Do I need to google that for you too? I don’t believe in any god.

          • brian

            Your name implies that you worship a giant meatball with spaghetti arms. And we should listen to you regarding issues of health and wellness because?

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And how is that any different from worshiping a “sky fairy?”

          • AutismDadd

            Wrong. Your Overlord is science itself.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            Science is merely a method by which ideas are tested….the idea that vaccines cause autism has been tested, over and over again, and has been found wanting.

          • brian

            That is a lie. There are over 100 peer reviewed articles that show a link with vaccines and autism.

          • Lawrence McNamara
          • brian

            Blindly posting things that have no relevance to the argument at hand is very, very annoying. I asked for an independent peer reviewed paper showing vaccines are safe and effective, and you post that stuff? Let me save you some time; there are no independent scientific studies which show vaccines are safe and effective. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Thanks for exemplifying this fact and looking like a horses behind whilst doing it.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            It is completely relevant – since I’m sure those “100” papers you mention, are debunked with the link I provided.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea wanting the real truth, not meta-analysis of old useless studies that came from government and pharma’s partnership.

          • Lawrence McNamara

            And what, in your mind, would constitute “real truth?”

          • AutismDadd

            Why don’t you guess and I’ll tell you when you get it.

    • Justthefacts

      Do you dig Gettisburg?

      • brian

        I have been to Gettisburg (sic) many times; this is nothing like Gettysburg. Those people were divided by much more complicated differences in a much different world then we have today. The fundamentals for which they fought are foreign to self-serving, egocentric tyrants like you. They did not hate the fathers, brothers and friends they fought against; they admired their courage and position, but would not budge regarding their own values as that would taint their honor and character. I have no respect for you. You have no honor, and no character that appeals to me. If you think that another civil war would look like Gettysburg regarding vaccinated vs. unvaccinated, then you are sorely mistaken. Those that do not vaccinate are the most educated people in the populace; do you really think that you can outmaneuver someone with an IQ 20 points above you? You don’t even know how to spell Gettysburg.

        • Justthefacts

          No. I spelled it right. That is how YOU spelled it on facebook, Jason.
          .
          Do you want me to elaborate? Just insult me some more.